Alignment

Crazylegs

Advanced Member
Messages
5,224
Crackfox said:
Theres already a single display typhoon, i was speaking to the pilot after he nearly stacked it at fairford. The Reds aren't payed for by the MoD as such, it's mostly sponsorship.
Of course, you are correct there is a single Typhoon display aircraft.

Let's hope they can get a few of them as a full display team.
 

Kevin85

Advanced Member
Messages
655
This thread has been... interesting.

Providing the bushes and diff are in good condition, caster and bump steer are the main causes of the wandering feeling so many people talk about.

Caster can be good as it gives you dynamic camber, effectively something for nothing and extremely useful on track. However, on a road car, it's relatively pointless and the negatives can outweigh the positives. A little is nice as it helps the steering stay straight, but some/lots will cause the car to 'chase' undulations, make the steering heavier and the return to centre effect stronger. But as I mentioned, caster gives dynamic camber when the wheels are turned, when you need it. Wheels 'upright' when you need them to be, during acceleration and braking. Wheels camber when you need them to be, in the corners. Magic.

The geo print out on the first page says you have nearly +4 on the left and just over +2.5 on the right after setup but around +4 each side before. I would guess that's a mistake. Caster can't be adjusted on our cars during a geo session, it requires parts to be exchanged. I would suggest something is a miss with the geo sheets. If you have around +4 each side, you probably have LCA caster bushes or maybe/probably swapped top mounts. Look under the bonnet at the suspension top mounts, are the camber adjustment channels 9-3 on a clock face?

Bump steer, there are no positives.. it's always dogshit. Get it measured and more importantly get it dailed out. Our cars are notorious for it and getting nearly -3 camber on the rear from lowering alone suggests to me that it's lowered a long way passed it's comfortable working range. This will only add to the bump steer problem. You might even be getting positive camber on compression from the front arms. Bad times.

Do you have a more recent print out?

Also, anyone who says strings are useless doesn't know what they're talking about.
 

Indi

Advanced Member
Messages
711
When are you next on track Carl? be nice to have a play

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
 

Crackfox

Advanced Member
Messages
617
Kevin85 said:
This thread has been... interesting.

Providing the bushes and diff are in good condition, caster and bump steer are the main causes of the wandering feeling so many people talk about.

Caster can be good as it gives you dynamic camber, effectively something for nothing and extremely useful on track. However, on a road car, it's relatively pointless and the negatives can outweigh the positives. A little is nice as it helps the steering stay straight, but some/lots will cause the car to 'chase' undulations, make the steering heavier and the return to centre effect stronger. But as I mentioned, caster gives dynamic camber when the wheels are turned, when you need it. Wheels 'upright' when you need them to be, during acceleration and braking. Wheels camber when you need them to be, in the corners. Magic.

The geo print out on the first page says you have nearly +4 on the left and just over +2.5 on the right after setup but around +4 each side before. I would guess that's a mistake. Caster can't be adjusted on our cars during a geo session, it requires parts to be exchanged. I would suggest something is a miss with the geo sheets. If you have around +4 each side, you probably have LCA caster bushes or maybe/probably swapped top mounts. Look under the bonnet at the suspension top mounts, are the camber adjustment channels 9-3 on a clock face?

Bump steer, there are no positives.. it's always dogexcrement. Get it measured and more importantly get it dailed out. Our cars are notorious for it and getting nearly -3 camber on the rear from lowering alone suggests to me that it's lowered a long way passed it's comfortable working range. This will only add to the bump steer problem. You might even be getting positive camber on compression from the front arms. Bad times.

Do you have a more recent print out?

Also, anyone who says strings are useless doesn't know what they're talking about.
Kevin, funny you should say that, i was just looking at the receipts this morning from when the previous owner had the car worked on at Torque. i was going to ask on here actually, if the difference in camber each side would be potentially caussing these issues. There is no record on there of the bushes being changed, just the engine mount ones. The top mounts just have 4 allen bolts and lines going across.
 

carl hammond

Advanced Member
Messages
3,349
When are you next on track Carl? be nice to have a play

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
TBC'd mate as I am away this month, Route 66 Road Trip doing LA and Vegas through April and a few bits I want to do to the car, only done about 30 miles since fitting everything and need to fit another new front top mount bearing as the ones that came with the suspension were pants and I sold my good ones that were only 2yrs old :-(

I hope to get something booked through May and June before more holidays, have you still got the M3?
 
Messages
32
See I asked TGM to set mine up with the old FRSU and they took it to some random garage, didn't and doesn't feel 100%. I was under the impression they would be doing it with their own gear (i'd of been happy with string!) if they said they were going to take it down the road I'd not have bothered. - No bad word against TGM to be clear they are great.

Ive since fucked about with the coilovers and got them accurate and within tolerance, I was/am going to take it to WIM to get a slightly different setup (0 toe and 1.5 camber maybe less on my B14s), I know that WIM are box tickers and not on par with someone like Torque or Centre Gravity but they seem in my experience to be fairly accurate.

Saying that I took my old e92 m3 there twice and it never felt 100% either used to wander off to the left when there was camber (hard to explain without actually driving but it wasnt as you'd expect), they definitely don't deserve the praise they get but they are ok.

Crazylegs said:
Sorry buddy but they're full of sh*t. Talking absolute rubbish there but if you want to use them that's your decision but don't be expecting an improvement.

As I've said before, these cars are not easy to setup. It certainly doesn't sound like your suspension is what you need so I'd suggest selling it and get something softer that's better built and rides better.

I'd go for Sam's Bilsteins if you can sell the Meisters then get it back to Area Motorsport, TGM or Grinspeed. As has already been said several times already, the string method is the proper way to do it, it's old school but it does a true measure in terms of alignment from people that have worked on Honda chassis' for numerous years many in Motorsport. Stevie at Grinspeed is an ex M Sport World Rally Team Mechanic, Tom at TGM runs a race team racing DC5's. Rob at Area runs and builds cars for the Civic Cup.
 

ollieh17

Advanced Member
Messages
307
Bathroom_Security said:
See I asked TGM to set mine up with the old FRSU and they took it to some random garage, didn't and doesn't feel 100%. I was under the impression they would be doing it with their own gear (i'd of been happy with string!) if they said they were going to take it down the road I'd not have bothered. - No bad word against TGM to be clear they are great.

Ive since fornicateed about with the coilovers and got them accurate and within tolerance, I was/am going to take it to WIM to get a slightly different setup (0 toe and 1.5 camber maybe less on my B14s), I know that WIM are box tickers and not on par with someone like Torque or Centre Gravity but they seem in my experience to be fairly accurate.

Saying that I took my old e92 m3 there twice and it never felt 100% either used to wander off to the left when there was camber (hard to explain without actually driving but it wasnt as you'd expect), they definitely don't deserve the praise they get but they are ok.
I've always just taking it to a alignment place with figures i've decided on from research. This FRSU bull just seems like a con to me lol
 
Messages
32
ollieh17 said:
I've always just taking it to a alignment place with figures i've decided on from research. This FRSU bull just seems like a con to me lol
Yeah I dont think it was the right setup for me really. Did corner well but I'd sooner have some stability





Crackfox if you are anywhere near Woking/Weybridge area you're more than welcome to have a ride in mine with B14's (i am due a geo setup currently though so not going to be100%) if you want something to compare. Can see this problem is driving you nuts.

Mine is the only DC5 ive ever driven though so it could be fucked for all I know! Tom at TGM said it was absolutely fine when he drove it though.
 
Messages
32
Crackfox said:
I was overtaking a cyclist last night, nipped over the centre line, my wheels did what ever it is they're doin, and the next second I'm heading at the guy. LSD or not, I fail to believe this is normal behaviour for any car.
Most likely your diff behaving normally. I owned a Megane 275 RS for a while with an LSD and that was similar although that had electric steering, traction control and out the box i think they run flat camber (maybe slightly positive) so while it wasn't aggressive like the DC5 is, it still used to pull quite violently when crossing over the crest of a road during overtakes.

Read youre from Grimsby area, I am from Hull but live in Surrey now. Not sure when ill be visiting family again up there next (maybe April) and even then not sure I can be bothered to suffer 4 hrs in the Recaro Medieval torture devices (rather take the daily) but if I am about up there again you're welcome to have a ride or whatever if you wanted a 2nd opinion.
 

Crackfox

Advanced Member
Messages
617
Bathroom_Security said:
Most likely your diff behaving normally. I owned a Megane 275 RS for a while with an LSD and that was similar although that had electric steering, traction control and out the box i think they run flat camber (maybe slightly positive) so while it wasn't aggressive like the DC5 is, it still used to pull quite violently when crossing over the crest of a road during overtakes.

Read youre from Grimsby area, I am from Hull but live in Surrey now. Not sure when ill be visiting family again up there next (maybe April) and even then not sure I can be bothered to suffer 4 hrs in the Recaro Medieval torture devices (rather take the daily) but if I am about up there again you're welcome to have a ride or whatever if you wanted a 2nd opinion.
Cheers man. I actually like the Recoro's on a long drive, just have to remember to empty my pockets. Nothing worse than getting on your way and realising you are going to have a numb butt from the wallet. I do get the lsd thing, i did have a DC2, but this seems off to me. Whether it's being accented by the issue i don't know. It just feel like my wheels are constantly moving, Even if i hang onto the s/wheel to keep it still, it feels like the wheels are doing there own thing.

I've ordered a rack slider out of idle curiosity. I don't have any knocking, or obvious play, but one of the characteristics of a nadged one is wandering steering. If this weather cheers up I'll get it fitted. Going to try a differnt tyre place tomorrow and see what they think, maybe get the camber dialled down, but from what people have said running lots more than me, it doesn't sound like it will help. I also need to get around to double checking the height, but from Carls info of 340 for the stock, it doesn't seem like mine is even that low, I know I can't get 2 fingers under the arch and measured about 335mm at the front, but i want to make sure. even then though my track rod seems at a fair angle, and from what I've read it should be straighter than that.

The only other conclusion i can make at the minute is that the Meisters, despite being set fairly soft, just aren't soak the bumps that well.
 

SamDC5

Advanced Member
Messages
1,393
I'd just like to add after I've had some time driving with my YellowSpeeds. I'm running quite an aggressive geo, over 3° of camber along with 8KG front and 16KG rear spring rates.

Firstly, yes the car is stiff but on the road it rides fine. Pottering around it doesn't drag you around and it's generally very easy to drive. Once you start pushing it on a bumpy road, in a straight line it can get a bit twitchy but ultimately its manageable. Car gives me utter confidence even on the road.

Either some people are just quite sensitive to how the car reacts or theres a deeper issue.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk
 

CW05TEG

Advanced Member
Messages
122
To save traipsing through all pages, what tyres are fitted to the car?

Have they been replaced recently or are they part worn?

As mentioned before the wear pattern in the tyres tends to have a huge effect on these cars.

If you pull up to a junction with slight lock, then pull away quickly, does the wheel pull violently into the direction of the turn? Like almost pull the wheel from your hands?

That's what was going on with my old tyres fitted. It still does this naturally with new tyres due to the lsd, but it far more controllable.
 

SamDC5

Advanced Member
Messages
1,393
CW05TEG said:
To save traipsing through all pages, what tyres are fitted to the car?

Have they been replaced recently or are they part worn?

As mentioned before the wear pattern in the tyres tends to have a huge effect on these cars.

If you pull up to a junction with slight lock, then pull away quickly, does the wheel pull violently into the direction of the turn? Like almost pull the wheel from your hands?

That's what was going on with my old tyres fitted. It still does this naturally with new tyres due to the lsd, but it far more controllable.
I agree with this, before I had my AD08R's fitted yesterday I had just thrown on my other wheels without checking which was front to back. The car was constantly pulling me to the left all the time. Had my AD08R's fitted and it now drives perfectly straight. Tyres are definitely one to check, make sure the tread wear is the same on each axle.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk
 

Crazylegs

Advanced Member
Messages
5,224
SamDC5 said:
I'd just like to add after I've had some time driving with my YellowSpeeds. I'm running quite an aggressive geo, over 3° of camber along with 8KG front and 16KG rear spring rates.

Firstly, yes the car is stiff but on the road it rides fine. Pottering around it doesn't drag you around and it's generally very easy to drive. Once you start pushing it on a bumpy road, in a straight line it can get a bit twitchy but ultimately its manageable. Car gives me utter confidence even on the road.

Either some people are just quite sensitive to how the car reacts or theres a deeper issue.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk
I'd like to drive someone's car who has an aggresive geometry to see what it's like when pushed in comparison to mine.

Dan Coyote and I went for a drive last weekend and I was pushing as hard as I could within the car's limits and I still couldn't keep up with Dan and he left me on nearly every occasion, he's running B14's with an aggressive geo I believe.

You say above that some people are sensitive to how the car reacts or there's a deeper issue. This is my second DC5 and neither has filled me with confidence out on the open road.

For whatever reason and I'm getting bored of repeating it - not having a pop at you here btw but they are not the nicest to drive when pushed and even at low speed to an extent; they do drag around really badly. The road out of my house is smooth for about 200 yards then it cuts up and instantly my car will drag all over the place and wheel almost feels as though it's pulling out of my hand. Same again when going over white lines, pulls everywhere and it's hard to try and correct the car.

They also feel back end heavy and a tad unstable, it's not just the suspension feeling. The braking imo is crap and spongy, the car doesn't feel particularly well balanced which isn't helping. Multiple factors really. I know not everyone agrees with this and most people come back saying their car is fine but mine isn't and clearly the OP's isn't either.
 

SamDC5

Advanced Member
Messages
1,393
Crazylegs said:
I'd like to drive someone's car who has an aggresive geometry to see what it's like when pushed in comparison to mine.

Dan Coyote and I went for a drive last weekend and I was pushing as hard as I could within the car's limits and I still couldn't keep up with Dan and he left me on nearly every occasion, he's running B14's with an aggressive geo I believe.

You say above that some people are sensitive to how the car reacts or there's a deeper issue. This is my second DC5 and neither has filled me with confidence out on the open road.

For whatever reason and I'm getting bored of repeating it - not having a pop at you here btw but they are not the nicest to drive when pushed and even at low speed to an extent; they do drag around really badly. The road out of my house is smooth for about 200 yards then it cuts up and instantly my car will drag all over the place and wheel almost feels as though it's pulling out of my hand. Same again when going over white lines, pulls everywhere and it's hard to try and correct the car.

They also feel back end heavy and a tad unstable, it's not just the suspension feeling. The braking imo is crap and spongy, the car doesn't feel particularly well balanced which isn't helping. Multiple factors really. I know not everyone agrees with this and most people come back saying their car is fine but mine isn't and clearly the OP's isn't either.
You're near grinspeed aren't you? Why don't you get them to drive it and see what they think? The roads around me aren't brilliant either. Have you ever driven a standard one? I know theyre not a Rolls Royce in terms of ride etc but at the end of the day it's a performance car meant for track. I'd of taken you out in mine happily but you are a good trip away, what suspension setup do you currently have? What geo settings?

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk
 

bxlheathsupra

Advanced Member
Messages
384
Crazylegs said:
I'd like to drive someone's car who has an aggresive geometry to see what it's like when pushed in comparison to mine.

Dan Coyote and I went for a drive last weekend and I was pushing as hard as I could within the car's limits and I still couldn't keep up with Dan and he left me on nearly every occasion, he's running B14's with an aggressive geo I believe.

You say above that some people are sensitive to how the car reacts or there's a deeper issue. This is my second DC5 and neither has filled me with confidence out on the open road.

For whatever reason and I'm getting bored of repeating it - not having a pop at you here btw but they are not the nicest to drive when pushed and even at low speed to an extent; they do drag around really badly. The road out of my house is smooth for about 200 yards then it cuts up and instantly my car will drag all over the place and wheel almost feels as though it's pulling out of my hand. Same again when going over white lines, pulls everywhere and it's hard to try and correct the car.

They also feel back end heavy and a tad unstable, it's not just the suspension feeling. The braking imo is crap and spongy, the car doesn't feel particularly well balanced which isn't helping. Multiple factors really. I know not everyone agrees with this and most people come back saying their car is fine but mine isn't and clearly the OP's isn't either.
Im running meisters set 15 all round (havnt really played around with settings) and 1.5 camber all round. I wouldnt sag its rear heavy or draggy. Yes its not the most compliant car on the road but is much better then my civic fk3 diesel that was on meisters

Sent from my SM-A320FL using Tapatalk
 

Crackfox

Advanced Member
Messages
617
CW05TEG said:
To save traipsing through all pages, what tyres are fitted to the car?

Have they been replaced recently or are they part worn?

As mentioned before the wear pattern in the tyres tends to have a huge effect on these cars.

If you pull up to a junction with slight lock, then pull away quickly, does the wheel pull violently into the direction of the turn? Like almost pull the wheel from your hands?

That's what was going on with my old tyres fitted. It still does this naturally with new tyres due to the lsd, but it far more controllable.
New Avon's fitted by torque on collection. No pull under braking or acceleration.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
 

bxlheathsupra

Advanced Member
Messages
384
I think it can all be down to the setup, when i first had the bushes done and coilovers put on the car was aligned but felt unstable, i was gutted, went back to the garage that fitted the set up about 2 weeks later to have them recheck alignment and they found it was all out.
It was probably as the new components had all settled into position.
They realigned and its been amazing.
Yes on uneven surfaces there is some pull but thats expected due to the uneven surface. The car to me feels neutrul.
Yes dc5 brakea are not the most bite filled brakes but they dont have to be with the weight of the car. I spent loads of money and time on my civics brakes ending up with 320mm twin pot accord callipers which gave me bite and ability to hammer the car hard, bear in mind the civic diesel.weighs a good 300-500kg more then a dc5.
The dc5 brakes are the only car ive had where ive not felt a need to upgrade, dont get me wrong ive got dedicated track pads but thats just to eliminate any fade under excessive pressure

Sent from my SM-A320FL using Tapatalk
 

bxlheathsupra

Advanced Member
Messages
384
Crackfox said:
New Avon's fitted by torque on collection. No pull under braking or acceleration.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
The dc5 is extremely sensitive to tyres, only car ive had that really notices low tyre pressures or uneven tyre wear. Check your pressures, even a few psi difference between sides can make the car pull all over the place, my missus juke nismo is the same, as above the lsd really picks up on the differences and pulls even on a straight road

Sent from my SM-A320FL using Tapatalk
 

bxlheathsupra

Advanced Member
Messages
384
Sorry for multiple messages.. been thinking of new things after i press send, so even with new tyres you can get issues i fitted 4 new tyres to the juke and it handled like a bag of poop, swapped front to back and issues gone instantly... why?? But worth a free try

Sent from my SM-A320FL using Tapatalk
 
Top