Alignment

[Crackfox]

Most of this threads gone back to a lot of the original posts and advice we have lol ‍♂


(Gave not have lol), typo... ‍♂

Carl, what do you think then, Mugen Showa of eBay with some springs, or Sam's B14 for road use? Only issue I can see with the showa's are i dont know their history, can they be repairs if seals/bearings go etc? Or a used set of OEM with springs since some just came up in sales?

 

[Crackfox]

Scrub that the Showas just sold.

 

[SamDC5]

Scrub that the Showas just sold.

My B14's have sold now unfortunately as someone I knew needed them. If I were you mate, I would sell the Meisters as honestly they're not a daily drive coilover.

I would just get an OEM setup, OEM dampers with springs on or something if you like to have the car lowered a little. You'll be up in money too, the money you'll make on the coilovers will easily get you that setup and change left over

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[Crackfox]

My B14's have sold now unfortunately as someone I knew needed them. If I were you mate, I would sell the Meisters as honestly they're not a daily drive coilover.

I would just get an OEM setup, OEM dampers with springs on or something if you like to have the car lowered a little. You'll be up in money too, the money you'll make on the coilovers will easily get you that setup and change left over

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Alright no worries. Assuming you can't get new OEM replacements?

 

[SamDC5]

Alright no worries. Assuming you can't get new OEM replacements?

You can't get OEM but OE equivalent. You can get a second hand setup for next to nothing. Are you on Facebook? A wanted post on the Integra Owners page will get you a setup very quickly

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[Crackfox]

You can't get OEM but OE equivalent. You can get a second hand setup for next to nothing. Are you on Facebook? A wanted post on the Integra Owners page will get you a setup very quickly

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Tbre1994 is selling a set on here, just dubious about the 62k on then.

 

[Crackfox]

His OEM ones are pfl, assume that's fine to go on the fl? Thinking of those with some eibach springs.

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[SamDC5]

His OEM ones are pfl, assume that's fine to go on the fl? Thinking of those with some eibach springs.

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Yeah that's fine, when you order springs you just have order PFL springs to go with the PFL shocks.

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[bxlheathsupra]

Ive got a set of pfl front shocks no springs
If needed

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[Crackfox]

Eibach pro progressive ones anygood?

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[ollieh17]

Got a set of eibach springs on oem shocks good condition ride great. Might be able to come to some deal?👌🏻miesters are normally known to be great road coilovers. Designed for UK roads

 

[carl hammond]

Carl, what do you think then, Mugen Showa of eBay with some springs, or Sam's B14 for road use? Only issue I can see with the showa's are i dont know their history, can they be repairs if seals/bearings go etc? Or a used set of OEM with springs since some just came up in sales?

Sorry for the slow reply mate ive been out all day.

Just seen the other replies, I‘d have said for a road occasional track car 100% Mugen Showa dampers and Spoon Springs or B14‘s imo.

I ran the Mugen Showa dampers and Spoon Springs with oem bolts and rear arms for a year on track and people commented on my lap times and exit speeds so that alone says enough. Unfortunately they sold within a week of being removed.

Do you know what Meisters you have ? If they are GT1‘s I know someone who‘d more than likely buy them off of you, if one of the lesser models I can still ask for you.

Although Meister and Yellowspeed get a lot of love on here and the EP3 groups they are cheaply made compared to the likes of Bilstein and even Mugens fixed dampers and so could and generally do fail a lot quicker. Not saying who but one guy I know had yellowspeeds a year and they completely faulted, bought Meisters and has had to alter them as the adjusters keep popping out in the top mounts), not something I‘d want happening ever...

Anyway personally I think all this is as per one of my original posts. The setups done to the prev owners liking and requirements and it just (on the road) doesn‘t feel how your used to a car feeling and with uncertain and inconsistent road surfaces, conditions, cambers etc etc etc it‘s all too much for some people to like and feel happy/confident driving.

My Mugen Showa dampers and Spoon Springs setup felt much better on the road than my B16‘s but I knew it would all along and wouldn‘t go back as the current setups until I have the luxury of a workshop where my car can become something very special and de-registered and used for serious stuff not just trackdays (that‘s when serious suspension comes into play).

Yours however is more a road car I believe and may on occasion see the track, so you have a few options that I can think of;

1) Get used to it, get the camber, caster, toe etc all reverted for a better road focussed feel (maybe using oem bolts and arms) and set it to a better height and lighten up the stiffness until you‘re happy

2) Wait for some Mugen Showa Dampers and Spoon or Eibach Springs

3) Get some OEM Dampers and Spoon or Eibach Springs

4) Full OEM Setup (personally I felt it sat too high, was very crashy and I had 0 confidence in that setup)

5) Buy some B14‘s and sell the Meisters. No matter what anyone says Bilsteins of any type will be far superior to any meister or yellowspeed setup and will out live them. If you want to go further you could get B16‘s with better/higher spring rates and more adjustability etc.

All depends on budget tbh and I just wish you was closer as I‘d love to drive your car and let you have a drive of mine to see if there‘s anything similar you find.

Otherwise we are back to the original posts around bushes and so on but if no ones found anything then I put it more down to the characteristics of the car.

 

[Crackfox]

Sorry for the slow reply mate ive been out all day.

Just seen the other replies, I‘d have said for a road occasional track car 100% Mugen Showa dampers and Spoon Springs or B14‘s imo.

I ran the Mugen Showa dampers and Spoon Springs with oem bolts and rear arms for a year on track and people commented on my lap times and exit speeds so that alone says enough. Unfortunately they sold within a week of being removed.

Do you know what Meisters you have ? If they are GT1‘s I know someone who‘d more than likely buy them off of you, if one of the lesser models I can still ask for you.

Although Meister and Yellowspeed get a lot of love on here and the EP3 groups they are cheaply made compared to the likes of Bilstein and even Mugens fixed dampers and so could and generally do fail a lot quicker. Not saying who but one guy I know had yellowspeeds a year and they completely faulted, bought Meisters and has had to alter them as the adjusters keep popping out in the top mounts), not something I‘d want happening ever...

Anyway personally I think all this is as per one of my original posts. The setups done to the prev owners liking and requirements and it just (on the road) doesn‘t feel how your used to a car feeling and with uncertain and inconsistent road surfaces, conditions, cambers etc etc etc it‘s all too much for some people to like and feel happy/confident driving.

My Mugen Showa dampers and Spoon Springs setup felt much better on the road than my B16‘s but I knew it would all along and wouldn‘t go back as the current setups until I have the luxury of a workshop where my car can become something very special and de-registered and used for serious stuff not just trackdays (that‘s when serious suspension comes into play).

Yours however is more a road car I believe and may on occasion see the track, so you have a few options that I can think of;

1) Get used to it, get the camber, caster, toe etc all reverted for a better road focussed feel (maybe using oem bolts and arms) and set it to a better height and lighten up the stiffness until you‘re happy

2) Wait for some Mugen Showa Dampers and Spoon or Eibach Springs

3) Get some OEM Dampers and Spoon or Eibach Springs

4) Full OEM Setup (personally I felt it sat too high, was very crashy and I had 0 confidence in that setup)

5) Buy some B14‘s and sell the Meisters. No matter what anyone says Bilsteins of any type will be far superior to any meister or yellowspeed setup and will out live them. If you want to go further you could get B16‘s with better/higher spring rates and more adjustability etc.

All depends on budget tbh and I just wish you was closer as I‘d love to drive your car and let you have a drive of mine to see if there‘s anything similar you find.

Otherwise we are back to the original posts around bushes and so on but if no ones found anything then I put it more down to the characteristics of the car.

Thanks Carl, appreciate it, I know you;ve been around the block! There are some Showas on eBay, but they look shoddy to me

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mugen-Showa-suspension-Shocks-And-Springs-Integra-Type-R-Dc5-Civic-Ep3/233136636949?hash=item364806c415:g:vjAAAOSw2EJcaW93

Mine are just ZetaCRD. I looked at getting some new B14, but it looks like i still need mounts etc, which would hike up the cost a fair bit. Plus it's still a risk. Still trying to find out what the proper ride height should be as stock, whilst soaking the shocks in plusGas for a few days, then I might try and hike it up. for £400 for OEM with springs it doesn't seem like too bad of a risk.

 

[carl hammond]

Thanks Carl, appreciate it, I know you;ve been around the block! There are some Showas on eBay, but they look shoddy to me

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mugen-Showa-suspension-Shocks-And-Springs-Integra-Type-R-Dc5-Civic-Ep3/233136636949?hash=item364806c415:g:vjAAAOSw2EJcaW93

Mine are just ZetaCRD. I looked at getting some new B14, but it looks like i still need mounts etc, which would hike up the cost a fair bit. Plus it's still a risk. Still trying to find out what the proper ride height should be as stock, whilst soaking the shocks in plusGas for a few days, then I might try and hike it up. for £400 for OEM with springs it doesn't seem like too bad of a risk.

No problem at all, this is only my second Honda but I have been on the car scene since I was 17 and had imports since I was 19 and had my first R33 GTR when I was 20 (luckily I was importing cars with a mate so got a 5yr old GTR whilst being very young lol).

Yeah bilsteins will require oem top mounts, oem top mount bearings, ep3 front track rod ends and job done.

As much as additional functionality and adjustments are great for track use, sometimes fast road, it‘s all down to personal choice and too many get pulled into the it does x,y,z and so it must be better. Not true, a better built item with quality products will offer a better, smoother feel and last longer also.

Everyone says more camber and casters needed all the time. Yes adding either will help improve grip, handling and stability to a point but if you go past that point it will have a detrimental effect on the handling and you‘ll lose mechanical grip and the car will feel awful.

People say mugen suspensions a good road setup, I counter that as I have first hand experience of a year on track with it and mmm well Mugen Shawa suspension was oem on the NSX-R, enough said.

Bilstein have been in the game for over 100yrs so I think they know heir stuff as do Honda, but the oem DC5 and FD2 setups are just too harsh for our poor roads surfaces.

Those Showas are poss the worst condition ones I‘ve seen but that could be as they have not been cleaned up much (but the springs looks battered and the fronts don‘t have top mounts). Can‘t see where they are else I‘d say seenif someone can inspect them in person first.

They are however cheap (ish), I sold mine for 550 but they were in much better cond and come with two yr old top mounts and bearings and also spoon springs I had from new with protectors on them.

Personally I‘d wait and get posts up looking for some, someone will have some. I‘ll have a word to see if he‘d be interested mate and what height do you need to know the dc5 oem height ?

 

[Crackfox]

Cheers Carl. Yeah oem height, just curious as to how low mine actually is.

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[carl hammond]

Cheers Carl. Yeah oem height, just curious as to how low mine actually is.

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http://www.itr-dc5.club/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=4812

35cm back 37cm front, this is from the center of the wheel to the arch = a stock ride height


I am sure this is about right based on the image and info found

 

[Crackfox]

Cheers mate. I'm not a million miles out then, 335 front and 340 rear.

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[carl hammond]

Cheers mate. I'm not a million miles out then, 335 front and 340 rear.

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Not at all then, so it's sitting reasonably high now, have you put the stiffness down and set it (front slightly harder (not sure what settings you have an how many as I have heard loads have over 20, even 30 odd stiffness settings) why is beyond me as half the numbers prob wouldn't even notice a change between them whereas the Bilsteins are only 9 stiffness settings but damn you can feel them change between one another.

With my experience to date I would drop the car 40mm MAX from OEM if running 215 or 225 tyres with 0.5 - 0.8 MAX camber front and 0.3-0.5 MAX rear (which is the exact drop all round and camber you get from Mugen Showa Shocks and Spoon Springs) which I found to be the perfect stance. I will see if I can find the damper rates for the Mugens so you can set the Meisters to similar (if we can workout what number that would be), the main diff then would be spring rates as the Spoons are a progressive spring so feel amazing no matter what. To eliminate this maybe soften up the damping a bit more and get the caster and toe more oem

Trying to workout how to help form here without suggesting things that will cost you anything.

One thing Tom at TGM said to me was the amount of people who want a race car, want a track car, want an aggressive GEO for their mainly road car then call him saying it's awful on the road and unpredictable and un drivable is unreal, it's finding that compromise and finding a setup which is also not going to snap and bite you in the backside so to speak.

 

[Crackfox]

Not at all then, so it's sitting reasonably high now, have you put the stiffness down and set it (front slightly harder (not sure what settings you have an how many as I have heard loads have over 20, even 30 odd stiffness settings) why is beyond me as half the numbers prob wouldn't even notice a change between them whereas the Bilsteins are only 9 stiffness settings but damn you can feel them change between one another.

With my experience to date I would drop the car 40mm MAX from OEM if running 215 or 225 tyres with 0.5 - 0.8 MAX camber front and 0.3-0.5 MAX rear (which is the exact drop all round and camber you get from Mugen Showa Shocks and Spoon Springs) which I found to be the perfect stance. I will see if I can find the damper rates for the Mugens so you can set the Meisters to similar (if we can workout what number that would be), the main diff then would be spring rates as the Spoons are a progressive spring so feel amazing no matter what. To eliminate this maybe soften up the damping a bit more and get the caster and toe more oem

Trying to workout how to help form here without suggesting things that will cost you anything.

One thing Tom at TGM said to me was the amount of people who want a race car, want a track car, want an aggressive GEO for their mainly road car then call him saying it's awful on the road and unpredictable and un drivable is unreal, it's finding that compromise and finding a setup which is also not going to snap and bite you in the backside so to speak.

I'm 12 from soft front, 10 from soft rear.i don't find it harsh or crashy, intact I find it a little too bouncy. The issue is when I firm it up the wandering/tramlining/bumpsteer/whatever, feels worse. So I don't think its eliminating the issue, just making me notice it less. Part had also been me learning. Now I'm prepared when crossing a white line, knowing the wheel will snatch, bit I still don't think it should. I've driven alot of cars from Corsa up to Man SV over my 20 years on the road and never felt this before. I also want to say, but not sure, that it feels worse in the cold. Weirdly this morning with a pretty horrible head wind it felt quite planted.

My current camber is around 1.2 having had 2 different free alignment checks last week. I was going to go for around 1 front and the garage said they didn't want to do it and charge me when it wont make any noticable change. Maybe going even less is worth a shot.

I am surprised at the height because I always felt it was quite low, but I'll measure again tonight just for my own peice of mind.

I did a video on Friday to try and show how much my wheel is constantly moving, but it doesn't look how it feels lol. Plus u don't think I can post it here.

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[carl hammond]

The issue is when I firm it up the wandering/tramlining/bumpsteer/whatever, feels worse.

I would expect this to happen, and in colder weather also due to the tyres not getting heat into them as you'd want, camber and toe settings both play a big part in a vehicle stability and the propensity for tramlining. Extreme positive or negative camber will make the car more sensitive, especially when only one wheel encounters a longitudinal rut and/or groove at a time. Even if all the tires are aimed straight ahead when the vehicle is in motion a tire that is cambered wants to turn. This is the result of camber thrust.

Any car using lots of negative camber for competition or the track will experience more tramlining on the road so although some have said your setup isn't aggressive that's not the case. It differs from car to car, setup to setup, road and surface to road and surface and so on. There are too many variables for anyone to just say do X, Y and Z and it will be fine. For them maybe but for you or I maybe not.

Also if you have any toe-out settings this will add even more tramlining because the extra toe-out will reduce vehicle stability in a straight line.

Mines setup specifically for me (literally me, corner weighted, optimised to the max for my driving style and needs on track). I never really see anyone else going to that extreme, they only have an aggressive geo (FRSU as they call it) but for me that wasn't enough, going to the extreme is the only way to be sure it's setup perfectly. All corners on mine are diff heights slightly etc so under load the car will be flat and level and produce maximum grip, I also have mine set to allow me nice amounts of lift off oversteer which I enjoy

I am not sure how a video can be loaded here tbh mate, maybe a link to it on youtube, but like you say things always feel and are worse in person than can be seen on a video lol.

One thing I have always said on my car is that it's very diff to pretty much all cars I have owned and that includes my DC2, I had 0 confidence in the 5 for the first 6-8 months but as soon as I got to Brands again in it everything felt right.

You will get there mate it's just finding the perfect setup for your driving style and needs and car's uses and if this means sticking with what you have cool, else release some money from parts and go another route.

Are you planning on using it on track much or at all ?