TDC & cam gear alignment

[xDC5Sx]

I have a question that I searched for a couple of days but couldn’t find a definitive answer. Forgive me and guide me in the right direction if it has been discussed.

I just finished installing cams and valve springs on the vehicle so I did not remove timing chain cover and hope I don’t have to but it is what it is if I have to.
I thought I carefully did it without skipping a tooth. However now that I am done, in hind sight just for the sake of fact. I wish I checked literally top dead center of piston (the old long stick through spark plug tube theory and marking when piston is at its absolute highest point) and compare where my cam alignment markings were exactly or at least approximately where they were as piston is about to hit tdc and when it starts to go back down.

right now after the fact , I was 99% sure I did not skip a tooth through process but my cam gear marking aligns just as the piston starts its down travel. In other words piston hits TDC a hair before my cam gear markings align.

does anyone know if this is normal or if i probably skipped a crank gear tooth? I so would hate to have to remove chain cover and all that comes along with it so I wanted to ask the gurus here before I tear everything down and find out it was all good!
Yes I did attempt to start it , I couldn’t help myself haha. Curuosity got to me. It started for maybe 5-7 seconds and actually idled quite nicely. Albeit not like stock but I figured A3 cams are more aggressive and Toda themselves stated tune is needed to idle with A3 cams. So based on that I feel the idle is as fine , i don’t know how to explain it but it didn’t idle as smooth as stock but wasn’t real choppy or anything either. Anyway I cannot get it to start again. It is an overly rich issue as I pulled plugs etc and there is fuel evident. I also looked at cylinders / piston with a bore cam and as suspected there is a coat of fuel evident so would one tooth off on crank cause a fuel rich starting issue like this?

there is no codes or check engine light. All sensors plugged in , no damage or reason to believe I damaged any of the sensors. The cam position sensors are on the proper ones. No wiring or connector issues.

I am thinking I must have skipped a tooth but could it possibly be something else??

And If I did skip a tooth. Could I align the cam gears at actual top dead center with piston at true top dead center without having to actually see the crank gear mark and Arrow down there???

And if I have no choice but to align it only with the crank gear mark and arrow. Is there any possible way to see it with a bore cam and access somehow that someone knows of?

if I have to pull the motor or even raise or lower it etc. I’m just going to go the whole 9 yards and pull off the head too while I’m at it , send it out to get head work done. Put in new chains , guides possible oil pump modification etc. which I would want to avoid because I don’t really need to do any of it , my car only has 60000 kilometers on it. and pretty much babied. Rarely sees over 6000 rpm sadly. Haha. It will more after I get it all dialed in and tune safely but it has been a few year bolt on project with base maps so been playing it really safe and taking it real easy and monitoring air fuel ratios.

any help or advice is much appreciated

 

[Them Witches]

I know this is an older post, and sorry for the late reply.

If you installed new cams, you should be installing a new timing chain tensioner either from Toda or Inlinepro & a new timing chain.

I understand not wanting to pull the timing cover off, taking the crankpulley off etc. The fact it is not starting back up is concerning. Using the same timing chain tensioner and cam chain is very concerning to me.

Get back with me and we can go on from here. I would also like to get you on board with my Europe crew from www.k20a.org. We can get you in the right place.

 

[xDC5Sx]

Thank you for the reply. I’ve since got it all squared away and even dyno tuned , I’m stoked !!
I forgot that I posted this.
actually I did do a Toda chain tensioner as well.
I did not change the chain only because my car has only about 65 KM. And 95% babied driving all its life as well. Very well cared for and not ragged at all.

It turned out I was in fact off one crank tooth. I was able to reset it without pulling the chain cover thank goodness.

dyno’d at 245 whp @ 9k rpm
152 ft LB @ 6500 rpm
Mustang Dyno est. 306 hp @ crank! (I know this is est and taken with a grain of salt but still!). I’m very happy for all bolt ons no bottom end or head work.

nice linear power curve and was still climbing to 9k! Not pushing tho of course.

absolutely ecstatic about the set up and the Toda A3 cams. Feels fantastic!

Thank you for the reply !

 

[xDC5Sx]

I know this is an older post, and sorry for the late reply.

If you installed new cams, you should be installing a new timing chain tensioner either from Toda or Inlinepro & a new timing chain.

I understand not wanting to pull the timing cover off, taking the crankpulley off etc. The fact it is not starting back up is concerning. Using the same timing chain tensioner and cam chain is very concerning to me.

Get back with me and we can go on from here. I would also like to get you on board with my Europe crew from www.k20a.org. We can get you in the right place.

Oh actually yes I am on K20.org now! I’m fairly new member.

Lotus there was a huge help on this!

thank you

 

[Them Witches]

Your welcome brother.

Lotus is a great guy and moderator. So you are all squared away then?

I need to change my signature here, I no longer work for the forum anymore. My stickies and work still stand there & I help out as much as possible. Honestly, I did some good work there and it was time to hand off the reigns to someone else.

I do have some questions for you about the DC5 Type R, in OEM form does your Type R have the following :

-- Rear trunk bar below the hatch, as far back inside the chassis as possible ?
-- underneath the chassis, on the sides near the side skirts, are there bars ?
-- do you know of OR have you seen any additional chassis stitch welding ?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If possible, please could you keep a look out for a few parts for me ?


-- #2,#3,#4,#5,#6 parts // 01-04 DC5 TypeR front brake duct scoops (pick-ups) ** just the 1st piece that mounts in the front bumper (left &right sides) **

I have the rest of the fresh air ducts for the brakes, just cannot find the front parts. If there are junkyards over there, I will pay you to go find the parts. If you know anyone over there that may have them, please link the sale. If you ever want to consider exchanging OEM parts in the states, I am your man to work with. I mean you are sitting with the ball in your court brother, I am game.

 

[xDC5Sx]

Awesome , yes car is running beautifully and strong !!
Actually mine is not a Type-R. It is a USDM Type-S

I have a ton of Type-R parts on mine , including knuckles , lower control arms , spoiler , I believe I knocked out everything that Type-R has to equivalent or to my preference. no Type-R emblems and not a Type-R. I call it Type-SR

I actually added Ultra Braces to mine other than the Cusco front and rear strut braces and Cusco b pillar brace.

Ultra beneath front fender brace , C pillar brace and just for the side braces.

Sorry to disappoint not a Type-R haha

I attached a pic of underneath before the side braces for the heck of it anyway if wanted to see

 

[Them Witches]

Thanks for sharing those. Awesome set-up and clean. Those are some nice parts and the engine bay is well sorted.

Is that a Ultra B-pillar brace / 4pt harness bar ? I haven't seen that one I don't think.

I was think about getting an engine dampner, I have 4 Hasport engine mounts so not sure if I need it or not.

I wish Lokar would make the " G-Bar " for the DC5 like they did for the DC2R.

 

[xDC5Sx]

Thanks for the kind words.

B pillar brace is Cusco , I tied it into my Autopower Sport bar with quick release harness bar. Still functional rear seats.
yes I just have 4 point harnesses. Mainly for fun For looks. Will use if and when I track my car but I wanted to make sure i made the option .
C pillar brace is Ultra
All powder coated Champ white

for my useage Vibra-technic mounts are awesome! I don’t race and mine isn’t boosted etc though so take that for what it’s worth.
I had Innovative mounts for a bit but I didn’t care for the vibrations. Vibra Technics are plenty for me. Love em

the engine stabilizer , to tell you the truth I put that on for looks. I don’t need it but I dig the look! And if it helps then better yet! haha

 

[Them Witches]

The DC5 is looking really good man. I hope to get my interior to the level your on. My build in general, I hope it ends up looking as good as your does.

Thanks for sharing those pictures with me. I can imagine it handles and responds very well, the way you have set it up is very track like.

 

[xDC5Sx]

welcome and thank you

yes the idea around the build was looks (not gonna lie) haha , performance , reliability , comfort because I do like to drive it often as a daily if needed yet keep it clean so generally commute with it 2-3 times a week comfort is a factor too. and tracking it once in a great while was in the plans so wanted it somewhat trackable too so the happy medium of all of that is the result for me. Not to mention the shit ton of extra stuff that i don’t need but just having to caught the bug again and having fun with it couldn’t stop myself.
Luckily out here in Las Vegas the roads are generally nice on the highways and main roadways are mostly nicely paved so I can get more aggressive on set up because of that yet stay comfortable.

I don’t know track wise yet but it seems like I’ll be happy , it took a while to dial in to where I’m happy , it handles freakin great on nice paved roads , I’d go a little softer on coils if didn’t have favorable roads here but it is a blast to push. I want to find out limits on track one day
,I went through so many changes and I’m finally about there
Love the platform though man , such an awesome machine worth putting in the effort / time and $$.