Chrisdc587
Active Member
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Whats the best ride height for handling on Dc5?
Best ride height for dc5?
- Thread starter Chrisdc587
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tricker_luke
Advanced Member
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Yep articles I have read also state a maximum 1 inch drop to maintain handling characteristics.
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I've got 50mm on rears atm and seems OK. Got Anglesey on 27th so I'll let you know :/
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the std suspension is designed to be ok at lots of things and to last well on the car , if mr spoon said they couldnt develop coilovers to improve more than the standard setup it would put me off buying anything spoon, they obviously didnt try hard enough , of course the oem damper and spring setup can be improved.
BUT it really depends on the use and surface you are using it on,
if its a track car used on smooth tracks and the car has high quality coilovers (Nitron,Reiger,Ohlins,Penske) and associated geo parts to keep angles correct then it can be as low as hell , the lower the cog the better and as we dont need much wheel travel it will handle BUT of course that comes with a hitch , its almost undriveable on normal british roads that need wheel travel to maintain comfort . the more expensive coilovers will still work with limited stroke because of the way they are designed adjustments they have available and applications they are used for , the cheaper ones dont have the develpoment time and in general other than making sure they actually fit the cars it wouldnt suprise me if many of them BC/Ksport /D2 etc all used a generic damper cartridge that will work within a range of spring rates , im sure not every car uses a damper cartridge thats developed specifically for that car. unlike the higher end brands.
for most users a compromise is whats required at a reasonable cost (so the manufacturers can actually sell them) they want to improve the feel and handling of the car without sacrificing the on road comfort and give them a reasonable lifespan (again unless you spend ££££ dont expect the aftermarket coilovers to last long) , and wether we like it or not we all know the cheaper coilover is exactly that a cheaper coilover.
when i was doing TA in my teg i was lucky enough to be friendly with the guys at HKS , they shipped me a 'Special set' of HKS Hypermax Gold coilovers , while they were incredible on a smooth track like snetterton or silverstone , they were still way too harsh at Combe fast forwards a few years my wife gets the s2000 and we fit some ohlins coilovers , yes they were expensive (£1800) but WOW they transformed the car even without doing and special geo tricks , we run the car now about 40 mm lower than it was then so probs 75mm lower than a std car and the handling and big bump response is still incredible , its still more comfy than oem and with a few clicks of the adjusters is capable on track too.
so what im trying to say (sorry for the large amount of txt) is i dont think there is an ideal ride height for a dc5 , whats important if you lower it is that you consider its functionality and components you select to ensure the geo is still within specs and that it can still absorb bumps when on the road instead of bouncing all over the shop.
BUT it really depends on the use and surface you are using it on,
if its a track car used on smooth tracks and the car has high quality coilovers (Nitron,Reiger,Ohlins,Penske) and associated geo parts to keep angles correct then it can be as low as hell , the lower the cog the better and as we dont need much wheel travel it will handle BUT of course that comes with a hitch , its almost undriveable on normal british roads that need wheel travel to maintain comfort . the more expensive coilovers will still work with limited stroke because of the way they are designed adjustments they have available and applications they are used for , the cheaper ones dont have the develpoment time and in general other than making sure they actually fit the cars it wouldnt suprise me if many of them BC/Ksport /D2 etc all used a generic damper cartridge that will work within a range of spring rates , im sure not every car uses a damper cartridge thats developed specifically for that car. unlike the higher end brands.
for most users a compromise is whats required at a reasonable cost (so the manufacturers can actually sell them) they want to improve the feel and handling of the car without sacrificing the on road comfort and give them a reasonable lifespan (again unless you spend ££££ dont expect the aftermarket coilovers to last long) , and wether we like it or not we all know the cheaper coilover is exactly that a cheaper coilover.
when i was doing TA in my teg i was lucky enough to be friendly with the guys at HKS , they shipped me a 'Special set' of HKS Hypermax Gold coilovers , while they were incredible on a smooth track like snetterton or silverstone , they were still way too harsh at Combe fast forwards a few years my wife gets the s2000 and we fit some ohlins coilovers , yes they were expensive (£1800) but WOW they transformed the car even without doing and special geo tricks , we run the car now about 40 mm lower than it was then so probs 75mm lower than a std car and the handling and big bump response is still incredible , its still more comfy than oem and with a few clicks of the adjusters is capable on track too.
so what im trying to say (sorry for the large amount of txt) is i dont think there is an ideal ride height for a dc5 , whats important if you lower it is that you consider its functionality and components you select to ensure the geo is still within specs and that it can still absorb bumps when on the road instead of bouncing all over the shop.
Linus27
Advanced Member
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I know nothing about this subject and have held back from changing any suspension parts on my DC5. However, recently I changed to Spoon Spings and the TGM fast road setup and it has made a very notable improvement. Car feels more stable on the road and on the track as well as more progressive. So for me, I have not seen any negative results.
Rom
Advanced Member
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Suspension on these cars is very good out of the box.
It can be improved, but always with a sacrifice. As Simon said, Spoon could make the car better on track, but it would have suffered on road etc.
Most coilovers (not to offend anyone) arent high end enough to really transform the car all round. They will lower the car, and probably quicker for track use. But they cant compare to the big boys.
They are for people who want to lower the car, and think oem is junk mostly.
Honda spent far more time and money developing the DC5 suspension than any aftermarket company has.
Suspension isnt as simple as lower = better. Sure, for looks, thats what we all want, a lower look, smaller arch gap. But by lowering, you alter many other suspension angles and characteristics.
Ive tracked mine, on oem dampers and Spoon springs, and had no issues. For a car that is my only car, its not worth the sacrifice of road use, for track use.
I mean most Jap videos comparing stuff, like above, show racing drivers, or close enough to a racing driver. So there was a 0.4 second lap difference. Which could also easily be down to a early shift, late brake, lapse of concentration etc.
Very few of us have the skill, or the need, to be chasing such lap time changes.
For average use, the money is far better spent on a decent FRSU and tyres.
It can be improved, but always with a sacrifice. As Simon said, Spoon could make the car better on track, but it would have suffered on road etc.
Most coilovers (not to offend anyone) arent high end enough to really transform the car all round. They will lower the car, and probably quicker for track use. But they cant compare to the big boys.
They are for people who want to lower the car, and think oem is junk mostly.
Honda spent far more time and money developing the DC5 suspension than any aftermarket company has.
Suspension isnt as simple as lower = better. Sure, for looks, thats what we all want, a lower look, smaller arch gap. But by lowering, you alter many other suspension angles and characteristics.
Ive tracked mine, on oem dampers and Spoon springs, and had no issues. For a car that is my only car, its not worth the sacrifice of road use, for track use.
I mean most Jap videos comparing stuff, like above, show racing drivers, or close enough to a racing driver. So there was a 0.4 second lap difference. Which could also easily be down to a early shift, late brake, lapse of concentration etc.
Very few of us have the skill, or the need, to be chasing such lap time changes.
For average use, the money is far better spent on a decent FRSU and tyres.
Lukeyboi89
Advanced Member
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If you look at the body roll on standard suspension, then surely that shows it can be improved?
I've not driven oem suspension, but coilovers are not just for lowering. They should be used with a full suspension set up ie camber arms and camber bolts. These with an frsu greatly improve the handling.
And my yellow speeds are lowered about 30-40mm and with the correct set up handle great, and are quite soft for normal Road use.
So I can't see how this is the same performance as oem..
I've not driven oem suspension, but coilovers are not just for lowering. They should be used with a full suspension set up ie camber arms and camber bolts. These with an frsu greatly improve the handling.
And my yellow speeds are lowered about 30-40mm and with the correct set up handle great, and are quite soft for normal Road use.
So I can't see how this is the same performance as oem..
Rom
Advanced Member
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Im guessing you have coilovers, because you think oem is not good enough, and you wanted the car lower? Coilovers should really be corner weighted, guessing the heights are the same, or close enough with a tape measure, or the old 'finger test' isnt properly setup.
For a road car, imo, they are a waste. For a track car, great, buy some decent coilovers. A set of Nitrons or something will outperform oem on track. Most people claim around a 1% change in lap times when running coilovers. So on the road....you gain very little.
Yes, the feel of the car changes, it feels more sporty as its got a bit less roll, possibly higher spring rates, and is certainly bumpier. But how much turn in speed have you gained, how much apex/corner speed have you gained.
Most lower end coilovers adjust via the spring perch, adding preload to the spring. This is not ideal from the start.
As i said, its not as simple as lower = better handling. Lowering will change the COG and roll center which will change the roll couple. Often the opposite to how people expect.
The longer the roll couple, the more weight is transferred to the outside wheels during cornering and the more the car will want to roll in a turn. A longer roll couple makes cars slower to respond to steering input. The resulting weight transfer from a long roll couple also uses the inside tires less effectively during cornering, thereby reducing the available grip.
There is a lot of science to geometry. My advice to anyone is to research about the differing angles, how they interact, what happens when 1 is changed etc.
You need to have an idea of what you want to achieve, then learn how to go about the task.
And again, as Simon said, coilovers always have compromises. How often do you read people saying they need rebuilding, ones leaking, a top mount is knocking etc. Im not knocking them, they can be great for a given task. But for general road use, they arent needed imo. No one is driving on the limit so much they 'need' coilovers. Not on a road. And any benefits, on road, are so marginal, they can equally be gained by altering a number of other things.
For a road car, imo, they are a waste. For a track car, great, buy some decent coilovers. A set of Nitrons or something will outperform oem on track. Most people claim around a 1% change in lap times when running coilovers. So on the road....you gain very little.
Yes, the feel of the car changes, it feels more sporty as its got a bit less roll, possibly higher spring rates, and is certainly bumpier. But how much turn in speed have you gained, how much apex/corner speed have you gained.
Most lower end coilovers adjust via the spring perch, adding preload to the spring. This is not ideal from the start.
As i said, its not as simple as lower = better handling. Lowering will change the COG and roll center which will change the roll couple. Often the opposite to how people expect.
The longer the roll couple, the more weight is transferred to the outside wheels during cornering and the more the car will want to roll in a turn. A longer roll couple makes cars slower to respond to steering input. The resulting weight transfer from a long roll couple also uses the inside tires less effectively during cornering, thereby reducing the available grip.
There is a lot of science to geometry. My advice to anyone is to research about the differing angles, how they interact, what happens when 1 is changed etc.
You need to have an idea of what you want to achieve, then learn how to go about the task.
And again, as Simon said, coilovers always have compromises. How often do you read people saying they need rebuilding, ones leaking, a top mount is knocking etc. Im not knocking them, they can be great for a given task. But for general road use, they arent needed imo. No one is driving on the limit so much they 'need' coilovers. Not on a road. And any benefits, on road, are so marginal, they can equally be gained by altering a number of other things.
MeisterR
Member
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- 344
There are 2 different specialist within this field, there is the suspension and the geometry.
Geometry are best left for the specialist who deal with that: roll centre, alignment, contact patch, etc.
Those are one that we have technical partner that specialist in them, such as Wheel-In-Motion, Grinspeed, TGM, etc.
Suspension are what we deal with, and that mainly control "vehicle dynamics".
There are a lot of opinion within this field, but there are some basic principle that you work with.
For example, springs rate are not picked out of thin air.
There are calculation made to ensure you are going to get the most out of the tyres that you will be using.
Use a springs rate that is too hard and road tyres will not grip, use a springs rate that is too soft and you won't utilise all the traction available from Semi-Slicks tyres.
Generally speaking, body roll isn't a bad thing.
However, a lot of roll will mean there are a lot of weight transfer during fast transition.
You can ease this issue with damper valving, but then you end up with a very harsh ride.
This is where OEM is a bit stuck, because they do not have adjustable dampers.
So they have to choose a sensible springs rate, and then match it with a sensible damper valving… but have it as a performance application.
So you end up with a suspension that is a bit too soft on the springs rate, a bit too hard on the damper valving.
The car then have more body roll than one would like, but then is uncomfortable on uneven road surfaces because they over valve the damper to control the body motion.
There is nothing that a springs / damper combo can do that an adjustable coilovers cannot do.
The good thing about designing an adjustable coilovers is that you can go a bit harder on the springs rate (vs OEM) because you know for a fast road application the customer can dial down the damping to suit the uneven surfaces.
Then you have the damper valving on the stiff end match to the springs rate so you can get as much performance out of the suspension setup on hard setup.
With this setting, you can have a car that have control body roll that is compliant on softer damper setting when compared to OEM suspension.
And a car that is responsive and will make the most out of the suspension on harder damper setting when compared to the OEM suspension.
So basically the best of both world… but this only apply if the person designing the suspension know how to engineer the suspension to provide the wanted vehicle dynamics…
Because just as you can make a suspension that can be the best of both world if you know what you are doing; you can also easily make a suspension that is worst of both world if you don't know what you are dong.
Jerrick
Geometry are best left for the specialist who deal with that: roll centre, alignment, contact patch, etc.
Those are one that we have technical partner that specialist in them, such as Wheel-In-Motion, Grinspeed, TGM, etc.
Suspension are what we deal with, and that mainly control "vehicle dynamics".
There are a lot of opinion within this field, but there are some basic principle that you work with.
For example, springs rate are not picked out of thin air.
There are calculation made to ensure you are going to get the most out of the tyres that you will be using.
Use a springs rate that is too hard and road tyres will not grip, use a springs rate that is too soft and you won't utilise all the traction available from Semi-Slicks tyres.
Generally speaking, body roll isn't a bad thing.
However, a lot of roll will mean there are a lot of weight transfer during fast transition.
You can ease this issue with damper valving, but then you end up with a very harsh ride.
This is where OEM is a bit stuck, because they do not have adjustable dampers.
So they have to choose a sensible springs rate, and then match it with a sensible damper valving… but have it as a performance application.
So you end up with a suspension that is a bit too soft on the springs rate, a bit too hard on the damper valving.
The car then have more body roll than one would like, but then is uncomfortable on uneven road surfaces because they over valve the damper to control the body motion.
There is nothing that a springs / damper combo can do that an adjustable coilovers cannot do.
The good thing about designing an adjustable coilovers is that you can go a bit harder on the springs rate (vs OEM) because you know for a fast road application the customer can dial down the damping to suit the uneven surfaces.
Then you have the damper valving on the stiff end match to the springs rate so you can get as much performance out of the suspension setup on hard setup.
With this setting, you can have a car that have control body roll that is compliant on softer damper setting when compared to OEM suspension.
And a car that is responsive and will make the most out of the suspension on harder damper setting when compared to the OEM suspension.
So basically the best of both world… but this only apply if the person designing the suspension know how to engineer the suspension to provide the wanted vehicle dynamics…
Because just as you can make a suspension that can be the best of both world if you know what you are doing; you can also easily make a suspension that is worst of both world if you don't know what you are dong.
Jerrick