Camber adjustment done, not right, need opinions

[lockwood77]

I had my alignment/geo done at Nottingham Four Wheel Alignment Centre a couple of months ago when they changed my track rod ends, as obviously that threw my settings out. I was happy with the settings, based on the usual fast road settings (1.5 degrees of camber front, 1 degree rear, neutral toe front, 1mm negative toe rear).

I went back today as they found a knackered front ARB bush, so had them changed and four new Eagle F1 Asymmetric tyres fitted. They started doing the alignment, so I walked over and explained it shouldn't be necessary as it was only done two months ago. They said that two bolts on the bottom of the front left suspension arm were found to be loose while refitting the ARB, so they would check and adjust as necessary. I was asked if any suspension work had been done, to which I replied "not since you fitted the track rod ends".

Turns out the rear left had lost some of its camber, so that was put back in and £55 was added to my bill for the alignment process. Looking at the printout when I got home, I noticed that the front left now has less than 1 degree camber (53 minutes) and the front right has 1 degree 28 minutes, 50% more (and the correct setting).

So, I rang up and asked why one front wheel had 50% more camber than the other and was told that once tightened, 53 minutes was as much as it could give. I asked how come, considering the camber bolts are capable of over 2 degrees, and was told that because it was loose it may have damaged it. To be honest, they didn't sound too clear...

So, bearing in mind that they were the last people to do anything to the suspension (track rod ends) and that the camber bolts are perfectly capable of well over 1 degree of camber, should I accept what they say and get some new camber bolts in the expectation that one is knackered? Why was it loose in the first place - would they have had to remove these bolts to do the track rod ends? In which case, aren't they responsible?

I'm not happy, because the only route I can see out of this is to take it elsewhere (probably miles away), pay at least the same again to have it checked out, then find it either is knackered = more expense/setup time or that it's actually fine and Nottingham 4 Wheel Alignment don't know what they're doing. Either way, there could be a resulting argument about getting my money back from them as if it is knackered, it could well be there doing in the first place. :x

Opinions please - am I wrong to be suspicious? Is it just one of those things that's happened and needs fixing?

 

[alucardo]

That kinda sucks as I said via email.... Hope you sort it Monday....

 

[Gaz DC5]

I'd go back there and have a quiet word with the manager, take the printout with you and see waht he offers you. Surely he can offer to check it over for you and at least correct the latest settings?

 

[lockwood77]

Yeah, I think I have no option but to go back down there, not relishing the prospect, you can see it turning into a "well that's the way it is mate" kind of conversation...

 

[Gaz DC5]

Yeah, I think I have no option but to go back down there, not relishing the prospect, you can see it turning into a "well that's the way it is mate" kind of conversation...

You mentioned one of the workers asked if any suspension work had been done recently, it had by them so obviously this shows they didn't do there job right the 1st time - I'd definatly mention that and also mention trading standards as a last resort

 

[tron2k3]

you can see it turning into a "well that's the way it is mate" kind of conversation...

If it turns out like that I think a website like this needs to be produced http://www.parcel2gosuck.co.uk/ this is what a member on the type-r-owners forum created after get screwed by parcel 2 go. :xyes:

 

[donkeykong]

can u let us know if the camber bolts broke or something? i would really like to know how strong they are

 

[C&S Evo7]

the camber bolt is an eccentric bolt if it was loose(read nearly falling out) then yes it could get damaged. and possibly the damaged bolt may only be capable of that amount of camber once refitted.

now back to reality.
if the bolt was that loose and that damaged it would need to be replaced, you would also have felt it through the steering wheel, in my opinion they could not be bothered to correct their poor alignment or just wanted to charge you some more as they think they can get away with it.

my advice, either go back and say you are not happy, they can then show you why they cant get the previous amount of camber, or swallow pride and go to a suspension specialist.

camber bolts are very very strong, they are mostly TUV approved (eibachs)

 

[lockwood77]

Yeah, that was my thinking - they referred to "the two bolts at the bottom" - well, isn't the camber bolt at the "top" as it were? So they were trying to adjust the camber with the OEM bolts, which have very little play (the reason you need aftermarket eccentric camber bolts in the first place!)

Hopefully this is the case and they will accept that they simply missed this fact the first time and put it right...

 

[Evs]

Agree with Simon

IIRC those bolts have a tabbed washer that's designed to prevent rotation of the bolt (and therefore the cams on the shaft) once fitted. I suppose this could be damaged more easily than the cams, with the bolt not needing to be all that loose, although I still think you'd feel it through the steering.

The bolts are supposed to be fitted in place of the upper of the two bolts holding the strut to the hub carrier; you could fit them to the lower ones although I think this would give you less adjustment. A quick visual check would confirm this.

The bit that confuses me is that you mention the 'two bolts on the bottom of the front left suspension arm' - I take this to mean the LCA, and not the strut or the hub carrier... :?

Can you get the camber bolt off the car and post a pic? It's easy enough DIY as you just need to remove the wheel and take out one bolt (really sorry if this is teaching you how to suck eggs ). I think I'd be able to tell from a pic if the bolt was intact, and if it is then this proves they are giving you BS.

My guess is they tried to stitch you with alignment even though replacing the ARB shouldn't have affected it. And that's after you'd spent a few hundred quid on tyres... I'd do my best to get them to sort it this time and then never go back :xrealangry:

 

[lockwood77]

Yeah, that's my viewpoint - I went back this morning, but the two guys I dealt with (manager and mechanic) were at the other site today, so I'm booked in Thursday to see what's what. The guy I saw was telling me that they'd done it with the camber bolt, there was definitely no more movement etc., but it stank of classic "definitely not our fault guv" response rather than considered engineering opinion.

He reckoned that the difference between the 53' (53 minutes) one side and 1 degree 28' on the other equated to about three thousandths of an inch at the top of the wheel, does that sound right? I would have thought that 50% difference, even when that's only half a degree, would make quite a difference, to the feel/handling if not visually.

Also, what are the camber bolts usually capable of achieving at maximum? I've seen guys on here with at least two full degrees, would be interested to know so that I know how far out it is if they're saying it's at maximum.

I'll see what happen Thurs, if it's not satisfactory I'll start taking bolts out etc. :roll:

 

[Paul G]

The bolts dont give that much adjustment, from wt i can rem on mine only
about 1/1.5 neg max.

I had both bolts done on mine(not rec for road use) & the strut top at max neg & could still
only get 4 deg neg camb.....

Paul.

 

[lockwood77]

Hmm, I guess those running in excess of 1.5deg had adjustable top mounts then.

 

[haitch]

It may hurt the pocket a touch, but sounds like these monkeys are not going to get it right at any attempt. Save yourself the hassle and see a specialist.

 

[lockwood77]

I've had my car done at Center Gravity twice (as well as my RX-7), costing well in excess of £200 each time. The reason I went to this place is that having achieved settings I was happy with, I needed my track rod ends changing and Chris couldn't fit me in for over a month, plus it seemed overkill to have another geo setup when I was already happy with it. So, armed with my Center Gravity printout, I simply asked them to change the track rod ends and reset the car to Center Gravity's spec, which they did (the first time).

Seems they may not have tightened the bolts in question properly, although I've no way of proving that. Now I have this issue, but seriously, assuming their equipment reads right (it's new Hunter stuff, the same as Dixon uses I believe), how hard is it? I'm not asking them to do a setup, just make adjustments so the numbers on their computer match what I want!

It's not like it's a tyre place with the old laser alignment gear, it's a full ramp, computer etc. affair. Trust me, I don't shy away from spending money on having things done to my car properly. :roll:

 

[Evs]

Agree with Paul, the bolts don't give that much adjustment, it's maybe a couple of mm of offset between the damper and hub carrier at the bolt, I found the useable range was about a degree of adjustment in total.

Where that adjustment envelope is (ie between 0 and -1, say, or between -1 and -2) will depend on other factors ie the angle of the strut in the car, design of top mount etc.

My experience of them was on a mate's EP3 which had standard dampers and top mounts with Eibach springs so there was no other adjustment. My main concern was getting it symmetrical with as close to -1 as I could get, and IIRC I got it to about -0.75 both sides with just one pair of bolts in the top holes. Set the rear to the same amount with adjustable UCAs and it drives superbly.

I invested in a camber gauge ages ago, not that expensive compared to paying people to do it, especially if you want it done right and are likely to do it a few times. Given the amount of messing about I've done on various cars it's paid for itself several times over. Toe can be set with string and axle stands, sounds ghetto but it actually works very well.

If you were a bit more local I'd offer to just sort it for you for free tbh, but failing that either invest in the gauges yourself or take haitch's advice, give it up and take it somewhere you trust.

Hope that helps a bit more

 

[lockwood77]

Cheers mate, hadn't thought about getting camber gauges, might be the way forward!

Will have to see what happens, I just find it very odd that it's gone from being able to achieve 1.5 deg both sides to one side losing 50% of its adjustment. Is half a degree variance as a big a deal as I'm making it?

 

[Evs]

No probs. Got mine from Demon Thieves IIRC, it's a sort of spirit level with a magnetic base and also a 'wheel jig' that it bolts onto. Simple but effective and I'm sure it cost less than the average geo setup job.

I think 0.5 deg difference from one side to the other is a lot tbh, I wouldn't run it by choice. You may find it pulls a bit and will torque steer a lot more than it should. IIRC that was about the difference on that EP3 before I put the bolts in, and sorting it out made a huge difference to the feel of the car.

 

[lockwood77]

Mmm, that's what I thought.

Just browsing those camber gauges, quite a variety. Question is, can you make much use of them without a ramp? I'm assuming most (if not all) require a level surface, so if you've had to take the wheel off to get at the bolts or attach the gauge (some are magnetic for attaching to the hub/disc), how would you manage that!?

 

[Evs]

I understand exactly what you're concerned about, I wondered the same thing, but it's easy.

What you do is measure the camber with the car on the deck, say it's -0.5 and you want it at -1. This means you need 0.5 deg more negative camber. Jack the car up and remove the wheel, put the gauge on the hub with the magnetic base, measure the camber. It might be, say, -3.0 deg like that, could be anything, doesn't matter. You then just tweak the adjustment so that it's 0.5 more negative, in this case -3.5, refit the wheel and drop it back down. Then you'll find it's -1 on the deck which is what you want.

In practice you'll find you have to go through a few cycles doing each side as if you're making large-ish adjustments then one side will affect the other, but once you're in the ballpark you can get it quite accurate.

With a decent trolley jack it's really no big deal to go round it a few times anyway.

At the rear you can adjust the UCAs with the car on the ground, it's a bit like doing the track rod end at the front. You need some turning plates (ghetto job again, two squares of plexiglass with a layer of grease in between) to let the wheel find its natural angle.

There's a vid on here somewhere, youtube link of a chap showing you how to do the toe etc, I'll see if I can find the link.