Discovered wet patch of oil 1 month after clutch job.

[poeter]

Hi guys,

I need some advice here as I've discovered a leak with my ep3. I done my clutch about 1 month ago with a workshop but when i first spotted the wet patch I was dreading myself that it maybe the rear main seal not being installed properly by my mechanic.

So I've undone the clutch cover plate to get a peak and found that the engine side looks dry but if peer into the side facing the gearbox, i can see some wet patches. This leads me to suspect that I'm leaking transmission oil from the input shaft rather than the rear main seal.

I did recall my mechanic fill the transmission oil from the speedo sensor hole, and I highly suspect they may had overfilled the fluid.

I've checked the driveshafts area, looks relatively dry aside the gap from the bellhousing

I'm going into the mechanic and see what's gonna do. Hopefully it's just as simply draining the fluid that would fix it

Even if it does, I imagine the bell house is pretty wet with oil and the box needs to come out for a clean.

 

[Rom]

Taste it, gear oil tastes, and smells very different than engine oil.

Id see what they say first of all. Either way, if youve paid somewhere to do it, it needs sorting. Box is likely going to come out to inspect the fault (unless another cause is obvious) so can be cleaned then. In my experience, leaks have to be severe to cause contamination. Some will end up on cover plate etc by centrifugal force, but the most part, will leak past.

You could try draining (and measuring how much comes out) the oil , then running it and seeing if it stops. But myself, id want the box out.

 

[Phelpo711]

Hiya mate,

I've done the clutch on my ep3 before and I'm confused as to what seal your talking about?! No seals are replaced/ removed when performing this job?

Gearbox oil smells very strong - although I wouldn't recommend tasting it!!

You need to find out what oil it is and go from there. Gearbox oil - worn input seal possibly. If its engine oil then you have a leak somewhere!

Good luck bud

 

[poeter]

Thanks for the reply guys.

Unfortunately the head mechanic is not in today, so there's not alot I could do. The junior mechanic inspected the leak through the clutch cover plate and agrees with me that the oil leaks seems to be transmission oil as the rear main seal from the engine block is dry while the gearbox front is wet. So he cleaned it off with some brake cleaner and advised me to monitor the leak over time.

Probably not much point asking him but I've asked if overfilling transmission oil would cause this. He advised me he thinks it shouldn't.

So I've asked him to check the transmission oil level anyway and when he loosening the filler bolt to about half way, oil can be seen draining out already. But he immediately tightened it back without draining the excess and confirms that I am not low in transmission oil.

If I remember correctly, the oil level is correct when the filler plug is pumped with oil until it overflows and is allowed to sit until all the excess drained before closer the filler bolt.

I asked him if that was normal and he thinks it was normal to be overfilled a bit. He asked me if i want to drain the excess but I told him leave it for now as I would want to go back on Saturday to allow the head mechanic to see the problem as is.

It's now been 4hrs, the oil leak seems to reappear already.

 

[molten-ice]

You are correct with the fill procedure , drain all the oil out the lower cap, remove the filler plug and fill till it overflows out the cap hole , if i remember correct a change of fluid is 2l from wet and 2.5l from dry , although i could be wrong as i had the big trade carton of MTF3 so didnt really measure.

Have you looked at the top of the gearbox to make sure there is no oil coming from the vent?

 

[Rom]

Its possible over filling will cause it to leak. Much like an engine. Pressure will build up inside the box, quite often if removed when hot, you can hear the pressure release when you undo the drain on box's.
The pressure has to go somewhere, and will generally find the path of least resistance.

Tasting stuff is a bit grim for most people. Do this for a living and you get used to it haha.

It depends how far over its filled really. I often dont wait for the fluid to stop dripping out before i put the bung in. But then i know ive filled it up from the filler, so isnt going to be much over anyway (it will start coming out as your filling it once its reached the level)

If its leaking inside the bell housing, and its gear oil, its going to be input shaft seal. This shouldnt have been disturbed during the clutch replacement.

 

[poeter]

You are correct with the fill procedure , drain all the oil out the lower cap, remove the filler plug and fill till it overflows out the cap hole , if i remember correct a change of fluid is 2l from wet and 2.5l from dry , although i could be wrong as i had the big trade carton of MTF3 so didnt really measure.

Have you looked at the top of the gearbox to make sure there is no oil coming from the vent?

Nothing came out of the breather. Took the rubber bit out to look underneath it, it's a bit moist but i assume that's just normal.

Went back to the workshop the same day for another a look as the oil leaks at the bottom has returned after 3hours of driving. This time they looked a bit further and they've suspect it might be valve cover gasket as there is a bit of seepage from the back.

However it's not overwhelmingly obvious because the seepage does not look wet enough to suggest it is the primary source of leak such that it seeped through the mating surface between the engine block and transmission bellhousing. The valve cover gasket is not ruled out since the mechanic suggest it may also be possible that over time that the seepage will lead to a build up of oil down below due the gravity.

So he's sprayed brake cleaner on the back of the engine block and will have to see if the leak is visible on both areas, rear of valve cover and bottom of the transmission bell housing.

 

[poeter]

Just done a day of driving to and from work.

The oil patch is back as per first picture but the back of the valve cover seems relatively dry.

 

[poeter]

Just another question I would like to ask, when installing the rear main seal, is it mandatory to use a special tool to install it?

On the day my clutch was installed, this tool was not used, it was installed by tapping it in around edges. I wonder if this could lead to nasty consequences?

 

[Phelpo711]

What rear main seal?! The input shaft seal? As said earlier mate, when I've done the clutch on these there are no seals to change.

If its the input seal I'm guessing its just a lip seal (I could be wrong) but they have to be fitted the correct way round. Either that or you input shaft bearing is worn which leads to the shaft not running true thus not sealing when running.

Either way seems a bit of a funny one. Why would he change it if it was just the clutch that was worn?

 

[poeter]

What rear main seal?! The input shaft seal? As said earlier mate, when I've done the clutch on these there are no seals to change.

If its the input seal I'm guessing its just a lip seal (I could be wrong) but they have to be fitted the correct way round. Either that or you input shaft bearing is worn which leads to the shaft not running true thus not sealing when running.

Either way seems a bit of a funny one. Why would he change it if it was just the clutch that was worn?

Rear main seal, is this.

It's pretty standard but not mandatory to be changed when doing a clutch replacement, Although unrelated to the clutch but it commonly replaced because it's cheaper part to replace while the gearbox is off and it certainly needs changing eventually.

At this stage, not sure if input shaft seal is gone but I have a feeling the input shaft is still true and not wiggling up/down/left/right. Typically, if input shaft bearing bad, an obvious loud grinding noise could be heard when decelerating on 1st or 2nd gear which I do not have in this case.

 

[Stuarty]

Your mechanic should be able to tell if its engine oil or gearbox oil that's leaking. If you've had the rear crank seal replaced and now it's leaking oil my guess would be that the leak would be from the crank seal, ethier way the box has to come back out.

 

[poeter]

Update:

Went back to the workshop, had the main mechanic look at it and he thinks it's rear the main seal after checking through the endoscope. As expected, the box needs to be pulled out again.

At this stage, things look grim for me because it sounds like I will be footing the bill for the job because I SUPPLIED the seal and the workshop is not responsible for it. In my mind, I agree that it's not their responsibility if the part I supplied is faulty. It really shocks me that the rear main seal is faulty from factory. It's a Honda genuine part and I ordered it from amayama.com who is a legitimate business. It's the right part number as per parts catalog for my car and engine number. They agree that I got correct part, they haven't inferred that I supplied the wrong part but more so it was a faulty one.

I guess it was just bloody bad luck on my side ?? T_T

 

[k20-outlaw]

I suggest going in to them with a heavier attitude, they have no proof that the GENUINE honda seal you supplied was faulty, as do you have no proof it was perfect and they installed it badly or damaged it, so logic would say that Honda who make millions of good seals, did not make a bad one here, it was more than likely damaged by whatever mechanic put it in.

If it wasn't a genuine part I'd see through it, it doesn't matter who supplied it so long as it was a genuine part.

 

[Rom]

Without seeing the seal BEFORE they touch it, you will never know.

Its quite possible its not fitted properly. Too far in, or not far enough, it could leak. One side pushed in a bit more or less than other, it could leak.

Its quite common to install seals of this size by tapping them in. I use a dead blow plastic hammer. For smaller seals, you generally use a socket that fits well.

It has a small lip, with a spring behind it. This is the main part of the seal. If the lip is knicked, or spring damaged, it can leak. Most leaks are from the lip area, not the large outer part of the seal.

Working in main dealers for 10 years or so. Its rare a seal like this would be faulty,you would generally notice if it was. It has no hidden parts or electrics etc. Its either ok, or its not really. Leaks, are almost always from poor fitting. Im guilty of this too. Its easily done. This design of seal is used for lots of stuff, cams, front and rear mains, input shafts, drive shafts etc.
If i had to bet, id bet the seal was damaged during fitting, or fitted incorrectly. And im not bashing the garage. Ive probably fitted hundreds of these types of seals over the years, and ive never had one faulty. Ive had them leak, but always my fault.

I would argue, and try and get them to do it under good will. You supply another seal, or better would be you let them order a seal from Honda. You pay the cost, they cover the labour. This way if it leaks again, they supplied the seal.

 

[poeter]

Without seeing the seal BEFORE they touch it, you will never know.

Its quite possible its not fitted properly. Too far in, or not far enough, it could leak. One side pushed in a bit more or less than other, it could leak.

Its quite common to install seals of this size by tapping them in. I use a dead blow plastic hammer. For smaller seals, you generally use a socket that fits well.

It has a small lip, with a spring behind it. This is the main part of the seal. If the lip is knicked, or spring damaged, it can leak. Most leaks are from the lip area, not the large outer part of the seal.

Working in main dealers for 10 years or so. Its rare a seal like this would be faulty,you would generally notice if it was. It has no hidden parts or electrics etc. Its either ok, or its not really. Leaks, are almost always from poor fitting. Im guilty of this too. Its easily done. This design of seal is used for lots of stuff, cams, front and rear mains, input shafts, drive shafts etc.
If i had to bet, id bet the seal was damaged during fitting, or fitted incorrectly. And im not bashing the garage. Ive probably fitted hundreds of these types of seals over the years, and ive never had one faulty. Ive had them leak, but always my fault.

I would argue, and try and get them to do it under good will. You supply another seal, or better would be you let them order a seal from Honda. You pay the cost, they cover the labour. This way if it leaks again, they supplied the seal.

At the moment, I've asked them how much will it cost and I was hoping he can give me a more concrete answer but his answer was something like the effect that I may need to pay for the labour but perhaps (cheaper rate) and will work something out after the box is pulled out after determining the root cause.

At this stage, I've told him I'll let him use his supply of seal just in case it leaks for a second time and my parts gets blamed again. Is there anything I need to look for when they pull the box out which would more likely pinpoint as evidence of poor fitting of the seal?

Thanks Rom

 

[Rom]

Unless your there when they remove it....not really.

You need to see the seal, in situ, before they touch it.

Im not trying to say they are a bad bunch, or that they would. But if you dont see it, your only going off of what they say. So if they say 'no mate, it was fitted all ok, must be a dud seal' what can you say ? As getting the seal out, could damage it anyway, so no way of knowing if it was damaged before it came out. Or if it was fitted properly, once its removed, no way to know.

 

[davidpingu]

This is one of the reasons I'd always say to go to a trusted specialist as first choice. I know it's different if you've got to get an undrivable car transported somewhere locally or the job is too small to warrant doing the mileage but for something like a clutch change I think it's always worth the extra mileage.

I took a 5 hour round trip to get mine changed at TGM but it gives you the piece of mind that they work on these cars day in, day out and also if there is something wrong that I only ever hear of them showing good will. If genuine Honda parts have been sourced and they don't function correctly they are much more likely to sort it out of their own pocket rather than yours.

I realise you're kind of tied to this garage now but something worth considering for any future big jobs perhaps.

Hope you manage to get it sorted anyway mate.

 

[poeter]

Quick question before the box gets dropped tomorrow, should the RMS be installed dry or lubricated on the outer edge of the seal?

 

[Rom]

Ive always fitted these types of seals dry.

And any manual ive followed, has never said oil them.
Oil should never be around the outside edge of it when in use. They have very fine ridges around the outside these are a pressure fit, and are what holds it in place.
That said, i doubt it would do any harm, but the seal should tap in place anyway, the lube shouldnt make any difference.