ECU + mods

[M3Tz]

Hey guys,

I would like to say thanks to everyone who has replied to my posts, i have learnt a lot!! From these forums, very good indeed,

But I have another question

I have read that changing the 2-1 or decating the dc5 will cause it to run lean, I have a spoon 2-1 and spoon n1 back box, I was worried that it will be running lean so I took it down to my local Honda and had it checked, they told me its running perfect, totally fine.

I want to do some more mods, maybe groupem 4-2 and b pipe but I am worried that it will be running lean then, after seeing prices of kpro's I’m kind of scared of that route as I’m not a millionaire, so I wondered what options are left for me, a local Jap specialist apmotors suggest a unichip, take a look at the link http://www.dastek.co.uk/unichip.htm they told me it will do the same thing but for 300-400quid, i was wondering if anyone would like to share some knowledge and suggest my best option, please bare in mind this is a everyday car plus commuting, and looks aren’t important, sound is a bit but performance is my goal, but still retaining double figures in mpg

Thanks a lot.

Matt

 

[Project]

I think that your going to be backing yourself into a wall soon mate, as as soon as you change the 4-2 you'll be running lean then need an ECU, if your lucky you'll be able to get away with the intake and b-pipe, i have a feeling that you will only get away with the intake alone though.
tbh the only ECU's guys on this forum have used/using are the Kpro and Mugen, another option is to go for the K100 which was taked about recently which is similar to the Kpro minus things lauch control and data logging, and i think IIRC that its at around half the price including having it mapped which you could also save some more cash on buy having a ready map put on instead of a custom map.
HTH

 

[BadBadtz]

Running a GruppeM and 4-2 will definately make you run lean.

I highly recommended a KPro chip. Its not cheap but its worth every penny plus you get better mpg! I dont think anyone is running a Unichip and I wouldnt recommend it.

 

[Jayk]

i would get your mods fitted and then check the mixture. if you put the 4-2 on and didnt use the gruppe m you shouldnt have a problem. if you put the gruppe m im might run lean.

i will check my mixture, as i have been running a 4-2-1 toda and spoon exhaust for a year now with no problems.

 

[fonz600]

i would get your mods fitted and then check the mixture. if you put the 4-2 on and didnt use the gruppe m you shouldnt have a problem. if you put the gruppe m im might run lean.

i will check my mixture, as i have been running a 4-2-1 toda and spoon exhaust for a year now with no problems.

Basically what he says.
I had full Mani and exhaust and fuelling was spot on. Wasn't until I fitted GruppeM that it started to run lean

 

[C&S Evo7]

more air in = more air out = more fuel neded to keep mixture correct.


Honda can only check your car at idle which is no use at all, the lean condition will be more apparent under load.

 

[Jayk]

more air in = more air out = more fuel neded to keep mixture correct.


Honda can only check your car at idle which is no use at all, the lean condition will be more apparent under load.

my mate has a wideband, will pop it into my exhaust and put all the gear in, take it out for blast, will have full readings in tomorrow evening,

the stock ECU should be able to correct the mixture to some level having a secondary lambda.

 

[jostrom]

the stock ECU should be able to correct the mixture to some level having a secondary lambda.

The secondary lambda is only used for checking that the cat is ok (OBD2 test). It has nothing to do with correcting the mixture.

The car has a wideband front lambda sensor which is used for correcting the mixture at idle and cruise conditions. At full throttle, regardless of rpm, the amount of fuel injected is taken directly from ECU fuel tables and is not corrected in any way. This is when you run lean.

Answer to the original question. Simply get a K-Pro.

 

[MilanoChris]

Some info on Unichip and effects on the EP3:

K-PRO & UNICHIP


Well folks this topic may cause a bit of a stir round the forums but I will try and put down
the full story as it happened. I may add right from the start that it is not my intention to slag one product or company but what you may find from this post makes for some interesting reading. I will give you the facts about what was done and at the end of the post give you my views as the car owner and having owned both systems. Grab a beer (or cold drink) smokes if you have them and read on.

I bought a 2002 CTR and started to modify it. Comptech Icebox. Magnex back box, HKS earthing kit and Hondata inlet manifold gasket. I then went for a Dastek Unichip and had it mapped to my car at Dastek in Dalgety Bay.

After a short time I decided to fit a Hondata K-Pro ecu. Zportec arranged to have this mapped to my car (with the same mods) at TDI North (system r).I was very pleased with the K-pro and took my car to a rolling road day at Dastek and had a power run done. To my surprise and shock the car made the same power as it had done with the Unichip fitted. To say I was pissed off would be an understatement and me being me thought there was some skullduggery going on. Ok the two power runs where not conducted on the same day but surely the K-pro should give more?

When I fitted the K-pro ecu I kept my original ecu so I was in a position where I had a standard ecu and a Unichip mapped to it and also a K-pro ecu. After discussions with Dastek they where up for a test on the same day with the same dyno to see what the real story was.

I must say that from the outset Dastek where extremely professional and we both came up with what we felt was the best way to run the test to try and take out any discrepancies in the results. It was agreed that the car would be strapped down and no adjustments would be made to the fixing of the car for the duration of the test. Two runs would be conducted with each ecu and only me and two independent witnesses would know which ecu was in the car for each power run. Paul from Dastek would run the car for each test and he would be out of the dyno cell while the ecu changes where done. The computer screen showing the results from each run was also obscured from Paul’s view and he was told just to take the car to the limiter for each run.

Before each run was conducted I measured inlet manifold temp and gearbox temp using a very accurate laser temperature gun. It was extremely difficult to get these readings identical for each run but I definitely got them as close as was humanly possible in my opinion. Barometric pressure was also recorded and dyno cell temp was also monitored through the whole test to keep things as consistent as possible. The car actually ran for very short periods relative to the time spent in the dyno cell so temperature build up was all but nil. Across the runs the average Cell temp was 25.4c and Barometric pressure an average of 1016.

All the power figures are at the flywheel. Dasteks dynos calculate power loss on the run down. Some may want to know the power at the wheels but for the purpose of this test it isn’t really important as all the runs are on the same dyno so for comparisons sake it’s perfectly ok.

We ran the ecu in this order.
1. K-pro
2. Standard
3. Unichip
But I will give you the results starting from standard and then Unichip / K-pro.
My immobilizer function on my K-pro is disabled so the flashing key on the instrument binnacle was covered up so as not to give the game away when that ecu was in place. We pulled fuse six before each two runs to reset the ecu just to take any memory out of the equation. This probably wasn’t essential but once again it was a way of keeping everything consistent. The car was filled with Optimax and the test began.

First two runs with Standard ecu.

GEARBOX TEMP: RUN 3. 40c / RUN 4. 44c

INLET MAN TEMP:RUN 3. 30c / RUN 4. 31c

POWER OUTPUT: RUN 3. 204BHP / RUN 4. 204BHP

Two runs with Unichip overlaid with standard.

GEARBOX TEMP: RUN 5. 46c / RUN 6. 45c

INLET MAN TEMP: RUN 5. 33c / RUN 6. 30c

POWER OUTPUT: RUN 5. 210BHP / RUN 6. 209BHP

Two runs with K-pro overlaid with standard

GEARBOX TEMP: RUN 1. 43c / RUN 2. 43c

INLET MAN TEMP: RUN 1. 33c / RUN 2. 30c

POWER OUTPUT: RUN 1. 212BHP / RUN 2. 210BHP

Can now show Unichip overlaid with K-pro so you can see any difference between the two.

Ok so the answer that everyone is looking for is this! Yes the K-pro does give you more bhp in comparison with the Unichip. The difference is small but it’s a difference none the less. Although the power curve with the Unichip does look smoother. Looking at the torque graphs the K-pro again makes more peak torque figures but look again and see that the Unichip seems to gain more at certain parts of the rev range but lose out at others. Obviously these comments could also be applied to the K-pro. The biggest gain just after 5500rpm is most certainly down to the lowered V-tec engagement point with the K-pro a definite benefit of this system.

So now to my personal comments about the two systems as the owner of both.

My initial reaction when I had the Unichip fitted was that I personally felt I had not got the best from it. I posted about it at the time but after seeing the two systems running side by side my thoughts at that time where most definitely unfounded. I did have one hot start problem with the Unichip but it never happened again and was down to me not waiting long enough between the dash lights coming on and starting the car. Fuel economy with both systems in my experience has shown that the K-pro does give more mpg than the standard ecu and that the Unichip did give me less than standard. This might not be very important to a lot of people especially as we are looking for a faster car so fuel economy maybe goes out the window. Although it does give another aspect to think about when choosing either system. I would also add that this in no way means you would get the same results on mpg it’s just my experience with both systems.

I still have the K-pro on my car and maybe that says it all really but there has been so much misinformation regarding the two systems with a few comments basically saying that the Unichip does not work. I think we can safely say from this test that it does and what has been posted here is a way of showing the facts so you can make your own mind up. Obviously if your supercharging your car then K-pro is essential and even a manifold in my opinion would benefit from K-pro more than a Unichip but for what mods the majority of us do to our CTR’s (mild exhaust mods/induction) I think this test gives you all an idea of what to expect.

Big big respect has to go to Dastek for allowing this test(at there expense) and after speaking at length to Gerry and Paul they really are petrol heads at heart you really have to take your hat off to them for putting all there cards on the table.

Thanks also to TDI north (system r).I have always been very happy with there service and would have no hesitation in recommending Paul and his company to anyone.

Many thanks to Zportec.com. Responsible for maintaining and developing my car to my exact needs. Their attention to detail in all the work carried out on my car still continues to impress me.
This post in its entirety can be found along with additional video footage of the runs at http://www.zportec.com


And so that would appear to be the end of this post! But is it?



Now what do you think would happen if we put the K-pro ecu in the car and then attached the Unichip to it and live mapped the two together????????????????

Well after twenty minutes of live mapping here are the results.

GEARBOX TEMP: RUN 7. 44c / RUN 8. 46c

INLET MAN TEMP:RUN 7. 30c / RUN 8. 31c

POWER OUTPUT: RUN 7. 212BHP / RUN 8. 214BHP

The bhp graph is very close but does really show what a powerful tool live mapping is! A definite advantage to the Unichip system. The Hybrid ecu just edging the K-pro in almost the entire rev range.

The torque graph shows similar results. The gains the Hybrid ecu made are even better on the torque graph and really do once again underline how very powerful a tool live mapping is.


So that’s it folks hope you all enjoyed the post as I certainly spent enough time on it.

I have done my best to be impartial and give you all the facts and thanks for your time.

Si

Some more.

As a continuation of this test Paul from TDI contacted me through my local tuner who maintain my car (zportec.com) with an invitation to come to his workshop and conduct a similar test as we had carried out at Dastek. I felt this was a very good idea as it would give everyone a chance to see the results from both companies perspective.

Right from the outset Paul was extremely open and mentioned he was impressed with the test we had carried out. He was sure the K-pro should not have made any less power than the Unichip and really could not understand why the Hybrid in particular had managed to extract the biggest gains from his original tune. But there it was in black and white so in his words he couldn’t really argue with it.

He would like to run the hybrid ecu and then the K-pro ecu on his rollers and then see if he could match the power of the hybrid with some additional tuning to the K-pro. This was his main aim in the test as apposed to showing the gains from a standard car to K-pro as I think this information is already available.

The car would be strapped down and no adjustments made throughout the duration of the test. The car was run with the bonnet closed as in Paul’s opinion this is how the car is driven and is the only way to show the true figures you will be driving with on the road.

I expressed concern over this as I felt the temperature build up would be a factor in the results for each run. Paul suggested that the Hybrid should go first so if there was any benefit to be had then he would give it to the hybrid setup. We also agreed to wait five minutes between runs with the engine off and the dyno fan on to keep temperatures down. Two runs where conducted with each setup and the lowest figures recorded are the ones you will be looking at. Fuse six was once again pulled between each setup. An independent witness was also present to keep everything fair and it was not Paul that would run the car on the dyno.

So now to the test! The figures once again are recorded at the flywheel as Paul’s dyno can also calculate power loss on the run down and although you will see differences in the figures recorded between Dastek and TDI the differences between ecu setups are what we are looking for here.

Hybrid ECU

Initial comments from Paul where that power is certainly ok although the graph does look rather bumpy and there where a few points that the car was running rather lean in his opinion.


K-pro ECU

Power curve looks smoother with this tune and power as you can see is also considerably higher.



Two tunes overlaid together so you can see any differences between the two.

This is the graph that will certainly raise a few eyebrows. The original test at Dastek showed that the Hybrid ecu produced more power and torque than the K-pro but going on these results on Paul’s rolling road you can clearly see this is not the case by quite some margin.

I had mentioned to one of the independent witness after the test at Dastek that the hybrid ecu had felt slower in driving conditions and I have had two other people drive the car and they both had similar feelings. These dyno plots would appear to confirm my thoughts.

It was unfortunate that we still didn’t have the standard ecu with the Unichip mapped to it to compare as that is what the original test was all about. But if the K-pro in this test can beat the hybrid by the margin it did then im sure you could conclude that the difference would be higher with a standard ecu/Unichip configuration.

Paul was then up for tuning my car from scratch with the K-pro to see if there was anymore power to come from the K-pro. My initial tune from TDI was an hours dyno time but looking at the graph Paul was unsure how much more power was available as im sure you will agree 225.3BHP and 170.4 lbft are very impressive for a car with very basic mods. Nevertheless Paul would spend the remainder of the day tuning the car.

After countless dyno pulls and a quick visit to the pub for my lunch here are the results overlaid with the original part tune.

My initial reaction was one of total shock and we conducted four dyno runs just to check the results. Each run showed the same power give or take a couple of horsepower. The gains netted between a full and part tune are certainly there but the part tune power does really show how good Paul’s database of maps are for customers who decide on the part tune option.

Going for a full or part tune in my opinion should always be a decision that the customer should be allowed to make and when you weigh up the costs £411.25 for a full tune against what I spent originally £76.37 you really have to ask yourself does the extra gained justify the expense? If the car is never going to be modified further then in my opinion a full tune is best but if like me you will be adding mods at a later date then the part tuning that Paul offers is saving the customer a rather large part of there money. And hats off to him for offering this service.

Paul I think was very impressed by the results from my car with the minimal mods it has but was keen to point out that these gains are not the norm as some cars with full exhausts and better induction sometimes don’t make this much power.

Big big thanks to Paul and the crew (thanks for all the coffees) for conducting this test at there expense and it certainly was a long day for us all but I did drive home with a bigger grin on my face than when I arrived.

Once again I hope the post makes for a good read and im sure there will be a few comments about the results.

 

[jostrom]

I find it very hard to believe some things said in those quotes. There are no features in Unichip (tuning/powerwise) that K-Pro doesn't have. On the other hand, K-Pro has far more and advanced features than Unichip, which actually help you to make more power. Therefore it is simply not possible to make more power using Unichip, it is all in the tuning and how well it is done.

 

[M3Tz]

but for just airfilter mod and exhaust system?

would the unichip do the job?

 

[Project]

what is your budget on an ECU?

 

[M3Tz]

as little as possible, just dont want to cause damage to the car, and would like to see a difference with it. i emailed a company that sells the k100 that might be a good choice for just those small amount of mods,

 

[Jayk]

the stock ECU should be able to correct the mixture to some level having a secondary lambda.

The secondary lambda is only used for checking that the cat is ok (OBD2 test). It has nothing to do with correcting the mixture.

The car has a wideband front lambda sensor which is used for correcting the mixture at idle and cruise conditions. At full throttle, regardless of rpm, the amount of fuel injected is taken directly from ECU fuel tables and is not corrected in any way. This is when you run lean.

Answer to the original question. Simply get a K-Pro.

But there are multiple tables on the stock ECU? Ive got the wideband from my mate so will check the mixture from rpm and speeds /.

 

[Project]

there are a few tables on the stock ecu, but not enough for intake and exhaust mods

 

[jostrom]

Stock ECU only contains one mapping that is factory tuned for standard car. There are no different mappings that could adjust to mods.

I'm talking about mapping, which contains a total of 12 fuel , 12 ignition and 2 cam angle maps (interpolation tables). Having this many "different maps" does not mean them being suitable for mods, these are all required for standard car to run how it was designed. When you get your car tuned properly, nearly every one of these maps are altered to suit your modifications.

 

[Dark Blue Mark]

the stock ECU should be able to correct the mixture to some level having a secondary lambda.

The secondary lambda is only used for checking that the cat is ok (OBD2 test). It has nothing to do with correcting the mixture.

The car has a wideband front lambda sensor which is used for correcting the mixture at idle and cruise conditions

Is the front sensor really a wideband on these cars, or a 0-1 volt narrow band?

 

[jostrom]

Is the front sensor really a wideband on these cars, or a 0-1 volt narrow band?

It is a wideband sensor. The secondary lambda is a narrowband.

 

[Dark Blue Mark]

Odd, ive never eard of Honda using a wideband 0-5volt on the primary.

The S2000 is just a narrowband.

 

[C&S Evo7]

Its a Jap only car don't forget. But deffinatly a wideband is std, Its not on the rsx tho.