My Blown DC5 Rebuild

[martin200]

As some of you know, on the 6th Feb 06 my Integra engine decided enough was enough, after at least 25,000 miles of forced induction. I was accelerating onto a dual carriageway at about 60mph, 4,500rpm, when all of a sudden, theres the nasty pop sound, followed by that aweful sound as if someone has chucked a bucket of nuts under the car. I immediately concluded that the engine had thrown a rod. To top it off, I was attending a CTR owners meet at the time :roll:

Well I have had a few busy weeks, speaking to various people / companies about ways forward. I have also managed to acquire a new engine. Before I was to order my engine components, I wanted to know why this engine failed.

Heres the pictorial:

I have had a few busy weeks, speaking to various people / companies about ways forward. I have also managed to acquire a new engine. Before I was to order my engine components, I wanted to know why this engine failed.

Heres the pictorial:

Back of the engine:

Front of engine:

Knackered conrod, seized to the crank:

The holed sump with number 3 piston (in one piece) along with number 4 piston (only two large pieces left)

Close up of the pieces of the piston and little end of the conrod from cylinder 4:

Gudgeon pin, remnants of. Remainder is either in the mass of small pieces I have, or it fell out of the engine:

We have concluded that the cause for engine failure was conrod fatigue failure. No signs of det on the pistons or the head. Its easy to see why the con rod could have failed. The conrod pulled from number 3 is showing early signs of distortion. It actually weighs less and is thinner than a Renault 5 GT Turbo conrod, as you'd expect from a 8,500rpm revving Naturally Aspirated engine, not from a Turbocharged engine!

The other theory amongst people is that the Greddy E-manage does not adjust ignition timing. Therefore running a stock Naturally Aspirated Ignition map on a FI car could cause an uncontrollable burn / Detination. There was no signs of det anywhere so I am doubtful was responsible for failure. I'd have expected to see damage on the pistons for a start, or even big end bearing wear before the rod would bend. Fat rod vs a small film of oil betweem the bearings and the crank - I'd bet the oil would have given first. But the bearings were mint.

Here she is, currently sitting sorry for herself:

Note the high amounts of engine oil sprayed underneath the car, its like a Rover underneath the Integra now:

As I stated above, I have my new engine. My current intentions are to build the engine with the following spec:

Hondata K-Pro ECU
Forged H-Beam Conrods
Forged Pistons running 9.5/9.8:1 compression ratio (undecided)
ARP Headstuds and Rod Bolts

Wish I won the lotto, would keep my credit card clear then

Here's the goodies I have so far. My mate Paul got home from the states today, and brought some goodies with him! Problem was the company I ordered from decided that they did not have the conrods in stock and have asked the manufacturer to drop ship them to me. Obviously I paid for next day delivery on the bulk of items, but the conrods are excluded from this. I'll be waiting at least a week before I have all the parts I need :x

To aid tuning, I bought an EGT gauge - Greddy, same as all my other gauges, looks much better than my previous Autometer EGT Gauge. I actually purchased the EGT gauge before I blew the car up, but what the hey, may as well show it off

Anyt donations to get my car back on the road gratefully received :lol:

 

[andyd]

Nice one dude.....


i've got some better engine pictures then that @ home.......

lets just say i spilt the block in two :lol: :wink:

Andy

 

[matt b]

Shite mate. Never knew the car had givern up on you

Im no good at mechanics but good luck with the rebuild 8)

 

[martin200]

I can't stress how simple it is to work on the DC5. The engine removal did not take long at all. I managed to get it out the top, too Due to the turbocharger, it was a VERY tight fit, bit if I stripped out the front end I may have found it easier. If I fit my larger turbo, I will need to get my shoehorn out :lol:

The K20 engine itself is not that complicated either. Pulling the cam cover off is teh most daunting due to the complex VTEC mechanism, etc. But once the head is off, its very simple.

Martin

 

[Type-R 69]

damn that sucks man :shock: do you think it was the greddy ecu the done the damage.all the best for getting it sorted out

 

[andyd]

I can't stress how simple it is to work on the DC5. The engine removal did not take long at all. I managed to get it out the top, too Due to the turbocharger, it was a VERY tight fit, bit if I stripped out the front end I may have found it easier. If I fit my larger turbo, I will need to get my shoehorn out :lol:

Agreed, from memory it only too myself and a friend a morning to get the engine out and have it stripped down.

Andy

 

[jonster]

Really sorry this has happend Martin.

Looks like you've got a good plan for strengthening you next engine. Any reason for not considering sleeving the block as well?

You should have a lot more control with the KPro.

Cheers,

Jon

 

[MJ Type-R]

Just slightly worried.....

What block work are u going to do so that u can run those pistons without issue ?

What conrods are you going to run ?

Oil 'system' upgrade ?

Sorry, I can't be any more specific

Mike

 

[martin200]

I am intending on running stock sleeves and possibly use that block guard, if I deem that cooling will not be affected.

Using gas nitrite piston rings.

I will be using Eagle H beam conrods with Honda Green bearings.

No oil system upgrades - don't see the need.

I was going to fit Darton Sleeves, they are very cheap, however fitting them in this country would total ££££'s unless I can find out otherwise, so I cannot afford it at this time.

Is someone going to advise me its a bad idea? Race Engineering suggested that FRM sleeves which are fitted to the K20 engine are only good for 1 bar of boost. Guy at CPL Racing said K20 engines do not have FRM sleeves, thats just the F20 in the S2000.

Everyone says different, lol.

 

[Suped]

Sorry to hear your troubles Martin. Thought u were having too much fun with the turbo'ed teg and forgot about this place. hehe

In any case, its a blessing in disguise. Your very own project rebuild!! If I need an engine, you'll be the man to do it. The hole on the block looks pretty nasty. Judging by the bits left in the sump, the bang must've been quite loud. :shock:

 

[MJ Type-R]

Can I suggest....

1) You do some more research on the pistons and cyclinder walls specific to the K series

2) You research the K series oil system (this may have contributed to your engine failure from what I know / can see)

I'm being as helpful as I can at this stage/point in time.....

 

[dan the man]

thanks for showing us the pics....for some reason makes really good viewing :? seeing the internals and how it goes wrong. makes u wana prepare your own for the better in case the worse comes.

tad unlucky with the car, who knows when she was gona pop if at all. Truffs got lucky in a way eh :|

goodluck with rebuild and she will be back better than ever

 

[martin200]

Can I suggest....

1) You do some more research on the pistons and cyclinder walls specific to the K series

2) You research the K series oil system (this may have contributed to your engine failure from what I know / can see)

I'm being as helpful as I can at this stage/point in time.....

You are coming across as very cryptic to be honest.

I have spoken to a number of people who are deemed "good" in the building of Honda turbo engines. Nothing on the K Series forum has sprung up. What am I missing? Are you hinting to me that the open deck of a K Series is the problem or are you saying the sleeves themselves are pap? People who crack their sleeves have probably experienced this fate due to Det or the like.

Secondly, the K Series oil system - please explain to me how you think it is the cause for the Conrods to bend

Always happy to hear everyones points of view and correct myself if proven wrong

Martin

 

[martin200]

thanks for showing us the pics....for some reason makes really good viewing :? seeing the internals and how it goes wrong. makes u wana prepare your own for the better in case the worse comes.

tad unlucky with the car, who knows when she was gona pop if at all. Truffs got lucky in a way eh :|

goodluck with rebuild and she will be back better than ever

Hi Dan

The only people who need to worry are those whose cars are Turbo charged / Super charged. Then we must take into account that this car completed 2 years and over 25,000 miles under FI.

Truffs probably did not drive the car as aggressively as I did to be fair. Plus the weekend before I was on a charity track day.

Martin

 

[MJ Type-R]

Martin

- As the Cylinder / Pistons.. start questioning what is special about OEM parts...................

- Apparently there are now some discussions on forums about the oil topic......... I would not think very much if any of the system on your car, apart from the oil coiler, any internal upgrades were done. All I can say, when the car is to OEM spec, there isn't a problem....

Just to clarify, in the UK there is only likely to be 2 people that I know the K series... Turbo'ing / SC can't be done on a tight budget tbh...

That's it from me in this thread....... best of luck

Mike

 

[dan the man]

into the fog we gaze................ :| :|

good luck martin, and yeah glad mine aint turbod as it would pop within the first hour..she gets some right abuse!

good luck with it,sorry it happened but glad we can watch and learn


and are our liners nikasil lined?

 

[Slynx]

Reading through this thread, I have to agree with a lot of what MJ Type-R says.
The problem with modding most cars these days, is the fact that cars lile Honda Type R's are so highly tuned when they leave the factory (how many engines leave the factory in standard form producing 110 hp per litre?) that there doesn't leave much room for extracting large amounts of extra power reliably, unless you're prepared to spend vast amounts of money. Not only that, but loads of knowledge is also required (and that is generally in very short supply these days for most things)
For example, it took TTE (a Toyota based tuning firm) well over two years to develop a turbocharger system for the MR2 Roadster! I wonder why that is?, probably due to the fact that they had to make absolutely sure there would be no 'issues' upon release, or more to the point, a couple of years down the road (excuse the pun!)
I know for a fact that a lot of modded turbocharged/supercharged engines have had so many mods done to them to make them 100% reliable that there are barely any original parts left! The problem is though, at what price, and is it really worth it?
Manufacturers spend millions developing engines, and we think we can improve on them with a couple of grand - I don't think so. Yes, we can change exhausts, ECU's, air intakes etc., but even then, for the extra power gained, is it really value for money?, and arn't they designed for track use anyway? There again, I suppose it depends on what you're looking for.
As far as turbocharging this engine, I would be looking at all aspects of the mechanicals. For example, is the crank forged steel, is it capable of withstanding the huge twisting forces generated by +/- 300hp, are the journals wide enough and diameter O.K., is the block itself rigid enough?
These are just a few of the hundreds of questions that I would be asking.
Finally, there is one point that the author states, and I find very disturbing, and that is that the car ran fine for +/- 25,000 miles, and was probably not driven hard..............25,000 miles before it went bang?! Shouldn't a properly engineered conversion last the life of the car? Remember that this is a road car and not a track car, where engines are re-built frequently.
Anyway, I hope you receive 'proper' advice on the rebuild and are prepared to spend the money required for a good reliable road based car.
I look forward with interest on the progress.

 

[User]

Best of luck with it Martin. 8)

On the whole topic of tuning the DC5 - I decided a while back not to go for FI with mine - it will be staying N/Asp, maybe it will get cams, maybe it wont - but there's simply no way I'm going down the FI route.

FI on the K20 as far as I'm concerned is still in it's infancy, not a risk I am prepared to take but I stand back, watch learn and admire the pioneers. 8)

 

[martin200]

Interesting contributions onto this thread guys. Thanks for the best wishes, but we all know its not luck which decides the fate of any engine.

There is no way a high power output engine is going to last great lengths of time, I don't expect that whatsoever. As soon as you go beyond the manufacturers specifications, you are looking at increase wear and tear.

@ Slynx - how many engines have you built for high performance?

@ User - correct, FI K20's are still in their infancy, mainly due to the numbers of owners who want that extra ooomph being quite low. There is a lot of secrecy amongst people who have turbo'd these engines. Looks like I need to be closed book too, its easier, my car will speak for itself, I will have to start this cryptic lark as well;

"So what have you done to your engine?"
"It's custom"
"Whats been customised"
"Everything, this is Forumula One don't you know, everythings secret"

or

"Your engine won't last"
"Why not?"
"Can't say, I just know"

Just to finalise this - a lot of tuning is trial and error. Thats the nature of the beast. I am very confident in my new engine build. If it turns out the rings are too hard for the bore, i'll address it on the next engine. Thats one new variable following the fixing of a number of others - rod strength, piston strength, engine management. Quite what affect these new components will have on the big end bearings I will have to wait and see. But given the fact that the stock engine suffered no wear to the bearings is promising.

Martin

 

[User]

A lot of that sh*t goes on, and it's unfortunate. Imo we are all here to share information to gain knowledge. Well, that's the way it should be...

Bearing in mind I'm staying N/A - my only concerns are with the oil system, I'm looking for circa 270bhp (atf) but no-one seems to know at what point the oil system starts to endanger the engine. Some will guess, but that's no good to me - I need to know. Now admitedly - not many people have the resources to properly investigate this, but some know more than they let on, which isn't particularly helpfull.

So I'm resigned to mulling it over - 270bhp with limited rpm - maybe 8600rpm*, stock internals & best oil money can buy changed regularly & baffled sump.

*true engine speed rather than what our mickey mouse rev counters tell us.

Tricky situation.