Oil advice for modifiers

oilman

Authorised Advertiser
Messages
719
If you are "modding" your car and adding BHP then consider your oil choice carefully as the stock manufacturers recommended oil will not give you the protection that your engine requires.

A standard oil will not be thermally stable enough to cope with higher temperatures without "shearing" meaning that the oil will not give the same protection after a couple of thousand miles as it it when it was new.

Let’s start with the fundamentals. An engine is a device for converting fuel into motive power. Car enthusiasts get so deep into the details they lose sight of this!

To get more power, an engine must be modified such that it converts more fuel per minute into power than it did in standard form. To produce 6.6 million foot-pounds per minute of power (ie 200 BHP) a modern engine will burn about 0.5 litres of fuel per minute.(Equivalent to 18mpg at 120mph). So, to increase this output to 300BHP or 9.9 million foot-pounds per minute it must be modified to burn (in theory) 0.75 litres.

However, fuel efficiency often goes out of the window when power is the only consideration, so the true fuel burn will be rather more than 0.75 litres/min.

That’s the fundamental point, here’s the fundamental problem:

Less than 30% of the fuel (assuming it’s petrol) is converted to all those foot-pounds. The rest is thrown away as waste heat. True, most of it goes down the exhaust, but over 10% has to be eliminated from the engine internals, and the first line of defence is the oil.

More power means a bigger heat elimination problem. Every component runs hotter; For instance, piston crowns and rings will be running at 280-300C instead of a more normal 240-260C, so it is essential that the oil films on cylinder walls provide an efficient heat path to the block casting, and finally to the coolant.

Any breakdown or carbonisation of the oil will restrict the heat transfer area, leading to serious overheating.

A modern synthetic lubricant based on true temperature-resistant synthetics is essential for long-term reliability. At 250C+, a mineral or hydrocracked mineral oil, particularly a 5W/X or 10W/X grade, is surprisingly volatile, and an oil film around this temperature will be severely depleted by evaporation loss.

Back in the 1970s the solution was to use a thick oil, typically 20W/50; in the late 1980s even 10W/60 grades were used. But in modern very high RPM engines with efficient high-delivery oil pumps thick oils waste power, and impede heat transfer in some situations.

A light viscosity good synthetic formulated for severe competition use is the logical and intelligent choice for the 21st century.

You must seriously consider a "true" synthetic for "shear stability" and the right level of protection.

Petroleum oils tend to have low resistance to “shearing” because petroleum oils are made with light weight basestocks to begin with, they tend to burn off easily in high temperature conditions which causes deposit formation and oil consumption.
As a result of excessive oil burning and susceptibility to shearing (as well as other factors) petroleum oils must be changed more frequently than synthetics.

True synthetic oils (PAO’s and Esters) contain basically no waxy contamination to cause crystallization and oil thickening at cold temperatures. In addition, synthetic basestocks do not thin out very much as temperatures increase. So, pour point depressants are unnecessary and higher viscosity basestock fluids can be used which will still meet the "W" requirements for pumpability.

Hence, little or no VI improver additive would need to be used to meet the sae 30, 40 or 50 classification while still meeting 0W or 5W requirements.

The end result is that very little shearing occurs within true synthetic oils because they are not "propped up" with viscosity index improvers. There simply is no place to shear back to. In fact, this is easy to prove by just comparing synthetic and petroleum oils of the same grade.

Of course, the obvious result is that your oil remains "in grade" for a much longer period of time for better engine protection and longer oil life.

If you would like advice then please feel free to ask.

Cheers
Guy
 

Dc5Dub07

Advanced Member
Messages
833
Seems to be a lot of people on the forum who are choosing to use 10w60 oil as it "lasts longer", and "TGM recommend it"..](*,)

Maybe you can settle this debate?
 

oilman

Authorised Advertiser
Messages
719
It's completely the wrong grade, these cars need sae 20 to sae 40 not sae 60.

PLEASE READ ON................................IMPORTANT!

Let's get one thing clear, I supply 10w-60 and recommend it where it is appropriate for the engine or the application but conversly I caution against it's misuse!

I have debated this many times on many car forums and I know there are some that do not agree with me however I have never had a reasonable technical explanation why 10w-60 is in fact suitable, it's certainly not mentioned in the handbooks of many modern highly tuned performance cars, with the exception of some Alfa Romeos for "spirited driving" whatever that is meant supposed mean.

Explaining this is diffucult so there may be questions but I'll try my best to explain it in plain English!

Lets look at what oil specs actually mean and particularly the higher number which is in fact the oils SAE number (the "w" number is in fact the cold crank viscosity and measured in a different way) The SAE number is measured by the oils viscosity at 100degC.

Your cars require according to the manufacturers specs, sae 30, 40 and in some cases sae 50.

To attain the relevent sae number the oil has to be at 100degC (no thinner than)

SAE 30 11cst approx
SAE 40 14cst approx
SAE 50 18cst approx

Centistokes (cst) is the measure of a fluid's resistance to flow (viscosity). It is calculated in terms of the time required for a standard quantity of fluid at a certain temperature to flow through a standard orifice. The higher the value, the more viscous the fluid.

As viscosity varies with temperature, the value is meaningless unless accompanied by the temperature at which it is measured. In the case of oils, viscosity is generally reported in centistokes (cst) and usually measured at 40degC and 100degC.

SAE 60 is in fact 24cst viscosity at 100degC!

This is 33% thicker than an sae 50, 70% thicker than an sae 40 and over 100% thicker than an sae 30!

So, what's the problem with this thickness?

Well, this is measured at 100degC and at lower temps (70-90degC) all oils are thicker than at 100degC so the problem is compounded to some extent.

The downsides of such a thick oil (when not specified) are as follows:

Additional friction, heat and wear.
A reduction of BHP at the wheels
Lower fuel consumption

The thicker the oil is the more friction and drag and the more power the engine needs to move it around the engine which inevitably translates to less at the wheels.

So, when do we spec a thicker oil?

Well, you will probably have seen us on occassions recommending a 10w-50 but only in these circumstances.

1. If the car is heavily modded and heat/oil temperatures are excessive.
2. If the car is used on track and heat/oil temperatures are excessive.
3. If it's required by the handbook.

Our criteria for this is based on oil temps as an sae 40 semi-synthetic can handle around 110degC for limited periods whereas a proper synthetic sae 40 can hande 120-130degC for prolonged periods due to its thermal stability.

Once you see more than say 120degC for prolonged periods an sae 50 is adviseable as it is 18cst at 100degC and still 11cst at 130degC! This is in fact the same as an sae 30 at 100degC.

More importantly at 90degC an sae 40 is 15cst, an sae 50 is 20cst and an sae 60 is 30cst!

In a worst case scenario with thick oils (when not required) is that you will experience air entrainment and cavitation inside the bearings at high RPM. Not clever stuff!

I know this is technical stuff but oil is a combination of science and engineering and few people know enough about it to make an informed choice. Your engine would prefer and benefit from the correct oil.

Cheers
Simon
 

raz786

Advanced Member
Messages
1,887
Simon I'm currently using Magnatec 10w40, is this ok do you think? My car is fairly modded, Kpro and usual bits.

Thanx
 

stevo2603

Active Member
Messages
60
Alright Simon!

I'm using 0w-40 mobil 1 in my car at the moment and I'm just gettin ready to get a stage 2 tuning setup done! Is this oil suficient enough?!


Cheers,

Steven
 

MarkyD

Advanced Member
Messages
116
I can't argue with this. I'm going to change my oil. I have been using 10w60 for about 5k miles. Back to 5w40 and regular top ups i think.

I think i'll use Mobil 1, as i will be working for them soon.
 

oilman

Authorised Advertiser
Messages
719
It's a better choice, besides where does the handbook mention 10w-60 :-k

Cheers
Guy
 

Paul Type R

Active Member
Messages
99
I've got a question now.

Is oil consumption actually a bad thing? Is it even expected for our type of engine? It seem people run 10w/60 to quell the consumption as it's a thicker oil.

I've recently changed from 5w/30 Shell Helix Ultra VX to 5w/40 Silkolene Pro S for this very reason, i figured this oil is thicker when at working temp, as well as being seen as generally a better oil. Thing is i've not seen much change in my consumption (not had much mileage to varify this however but early checking points at consumption is unchanged).

You hear about high reving engines eating through oil at alarming rates, evo proclaiming their long term RS4 killing a litre in 1000 miles. M5's are apparantly as bad, even the lower reving E39 V8 model. So is high consumption normal, what consumption is acceptable and at what point should it cause concern?

Oilman, over to you...... :?
 

Hoodster

Advanced Member
Messages
374
Thats a very interesting question that I would like to know the answer to I was told when I bought my 5 that if the car is driven hard then it will eat oil so as I tend to have a lead foot the amount of oil my car uses never really bothered me as far as I'm aware the hotter the engine gets the more oil it will use I don't use my car all the time but when I do the oil has to be topped up fortnightly my car is an 03 plate with only 24k on it and its been serviced 6 times in the 4 year I've owned it.
I was using Mobil 1 fully synthetic 0w 40 but have now switched to 5w 40 Silkolene Pro S and this has made no difference to my oil comsumption.
 

oilman

Authorised Advertiser
Messages
719
Using oil is not a bad thing as long as it is not excessive. Some use oil by design others just seem to use it, and all engines are slightly different so one DC5 could have a thirst for 5w-40 and another not... Vtec also being oil dependant will also use some, in the case of Honda the more you use Vtec the more oil it is likely to use.

The BMW and Audi high consumption rate I believe is due to the state of tune of the engines. The V8 RS audi's essentially have the same V8 as used in other Audi's just tuned to buggery, same with BMW M series. BMW also state that anything upto 1ltr to every 500 miles is acceptable, though this is mainly to get out of any warranty claims. Most manufacturers state 1ltr for every 1000 miles is acceptable.

Cheers

Guy.
 

JT3173

Advanced Member
Messages
1,733
raz786 said:
Simon I'm currently using Magnatec 10w40, is this ok do you think? My car is fairly modded, Kpro and usual bits.

Thanx
Phew, I use that too, good to hear its ok
 

stevo2603

Active Member
Messages
60
stevo2603 said:
Think its the mobil 1 motorsport fully synthetic!
I've just checked what type my oil is and its the supersyn 0w-40 that I've got!
Is there any difference between this and the motorsport?!


Cheers,

Steven
 
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