Stupid question... how do you drive a DC5?

[Cobblepop]

Sounds silly... and probably is.

I've only ever owned turbo diesel cars and the power delivery is quite different in my NA DC5 which I've now been driving for a week. My last car was a MK1 Seat Leon FR with approx 190bhp and whilst I only have the Type S delivering 160bhp, I can't help but feel underwhelmed by the performance.

I know the DC5 isn't a power car as such and I am used to driving high torque engines but I can't seem to make this car move, especially on the motorway. If I'm in a high gear and put my foot down it takes an age to climb the revs (I'm talking 90bhp Nissan Micra style) and I'm convinced VTEC is a myth as I've never felt or heard anything close to what I've read about!

Am I supposed to rev the living hell out of this car to extract any performance? It's just not what I'm used to doing after driving turbo diesels all my life and I can't help but feel I'm hurting the car, which is backed up by the slight burning smell in the cabin whenever I do!

It sounds like I'm being pretty negative but everything else about the car is fantastic. The handling, the noise and the looks are all great, I just can't get the thing moving!

Can anyone offer any DC5 driving tips and maybe a decent garage in the Yorkshire area where I can take the car to check it over and make sure everything is firing as it should?

 

[Crazylegs]

Hi mate,

As per your previous thread, it's not a Type R you've bought sadly so it's not going to feel anywhere near what you're looking for.

Contrary to popular belief, Type R's do actually have good Torque but obviously not diesel levels of Torque but you have to be in the right gear. They're not a motorway cruiser as such therefore a diesel will feel quicker in real terms i.e 60 - 90 it will probably pull quicker but a Type R wouldn't be far off. Again, you don't have a Type R it's a Type S.

You're down 60bhp on a DC5 which is a lot of power and that 160 brake is going to have to pull along what is a reasonbly heavy car. Sorry for the negative post but we did warn you of the differences.

I'd sell it and get that White one I posted a link to you on your thread.

 

[carl hammond]

Sounds silly... and probably is.

I've only ever owned turbo diesel cars and the power delivery is quite different in my NA DC5 which I've now been driving for a week. My last car was a MK1 Seat Leon FR with approx 190bhp and whilst I only have the Type S delivering 160bhp, I can't help but feel underwhelmed by the performance.

I know the DC5 isn't a power car as such and I am used to driving high torque engines but I can't seem to make this car move, especially on the motorway. If I'm in a high gear and put my foot down it takes an age to climb the revs (I'm talking 90bhp Nissan Micra style) and I'm convinced VTEC is a myth as I've never felt or heard anything close to what I've read about!

Am I supposed to rev the living hell out of this car to extract any performance? It's just not what I'm used to doing after driving turbo diesels all my life and I can't help but feel I'm hurting the car, which is backed up by the slight burning smell in the cabin whenever I do!

It sounds like I'm being pretty negative but everything else about the car is fantastic. The handling, the noise and the looks are all great, I just can't get the thing moving!

Can anyone offer any DC5 driving tips and maybe a decent garage in the Yorkshire area where I can take the car to check it over and make sure everything is firing as it should?

Morning mate, some hate the things I say others don't but I come from a background of high performance (and I mean high performance not 400hp but one car was 1000hp), and 90% were all turbo's (from RS Turbo's through to two GTR's).

Firstly don't compare the DC5 to anything you've owned before, they are a completely different breed of car and require a very different driving style, for example on the DC2 forum someone asked me to compare the EVO6 I had to the DC2 as he was looking to get the EVO. my reply was simple - Personally I used to love EVO's but after owning one I found it dull compared to a lot of other cars I had owned previously.

The DC2 was more fun, nimble, lighter, challenging and involving. I loved the fact you can drive it around without constantly making loud noises, pops and bangs etc but when you feel the need you can give it that blast through the rev range and enjoy the fact it can play around with much higher spec'd cars.

It all depends on what you want from a car, the EVO can give you that instant boost buzz and silly amounts of hp and torque but the DC2 and DC5 are circuit cars.

If you are used to big torque or big power cars or want big power then unless you go forced induction then you wont get it form a DC2 or DC5, and if you go FI then imo I'd say you were better off buying one out the box that was from the factory that way (EVO etc).

So how to explain driving a Honda, well I have only owned two, DC2 and DC5 so not as much experience as some, but have been driving Honda's (inc on track) which inc EK9's, DC2, DC5, NSX and even an NSX-R since 2006 so know how they need to be driven. The first thing is if it's only a road car then you may fall out of love with it if the commute is pants and mainly motorways as this is not where they come alive, B roads is but for me I don't drive hard or over the limit ever tbh on any roads as I prefer to use it on track and not endanger myself or others and cause insurance and accidents to happen and increase.

Ring it's neck and push it too the limit, they were built to be rev'd and pushed, on track I am in Vtec flat out 90% of the time (even 95% I would say) as I use the gears a lot to stay in power, drop out and you have to wind it up again like a twist and go car toy I say lol.

The Honda is like an MX5 a drivers car and each journey or track session will bring something new, learn the cars characteristics, how it handles (grip is key and how the lift off oversteer can work in your favour).

I could go on in more detail and can if needed or pm me asking anything you need or want to know but others here have had more Honda's than me guaranteed and may offer different views but from a massively tuned GTR to my DC5 I can honestly say that the DC5 is far more fun, but I like the twisties and to have to work hard for any progression and personal development and learning in a car and like to rely on driver ability over hp and torque to just pull me along so to speak.

One thing I would reiterate is don't compare it to any of the turbo diesel cars or similar you've owned, their power is early and short whereas the DC5 is long and late, you don't hit your power until 5.5K (depending on the car's mod's and tuning history etc) whereas the others would run out of steam there, the Vtec is a switchover bringing a hit of hp and still no torque lol, the power and speed from a DC5 is obtained by using the rev range for time, they are built for long races (endurance) and circuits and are found to show others up more in the corners than the straights, get on the twisties or a twisty track and rev the nuts out of it and you'll be grinning like never before.

Carl

 

[carl hammond]

Just seen the other reply, your have the Type S, so based on this I would work on chassis and brakes and suspension and handling mods over anything and maximise the cars cornering ability over bolt on's that wont really do much for it. a Type R doesn't even benefit greatly from bolt ons like turbo's etc where a £300 part gets you 50hp etc (easily) or more...

 

[ollieh17]

Any N/A 2 litre car would struggle to accelerate at motorway speeds in top gear, thats what a gearbox is for! Not sure what the gearing is like on a type s but the teg type r has close ratios which actually allow you to pick up speed quite well in most gears.I have a 3.0tdi audi daily which FEELS so much faster, however only have to look at the speedo in the teg to see how well it picks up speed using the gearbox.

 

[CW05TEG]

Personally I think theres a common misconception here. Power is a calculated figure based on Torque and Rpm. Power therefore is just an indicator of what engine is capable of. It cannot be used to gauge the characteristics of how it delivers it.

Most Diesels have a higher torque figure but a lower max rpm, so the max peak power figure is subdued. The pulling power they have in the lower rpm range gives the impression of a faster car, but sadly they generally begin to wheeze after 4krpm. This means they have better 'in gear' pull but lose out when going through the gears in WOT conditions. In an ideal world, if a diesel could rev higher it would provide the best of both worlds (and hence a significantly higher power figure).

In contrast, you can have a petrol engine with a the ability to provide a lower torque figure but over a wider rpm range, therefore the power figure could easily be the same as the diesel example. The difference being, you must use the extra revs to deliver the same performance.

In the real world this means that out on the road, a diesel can pull with less consideration to gear choice. On the motorway in a higher gear for example, simply plant your foot and the car should be capable of accelerating without much apparent effort. The petrol however would need to be dropped a couple of gears to match the acceleration of the diesel. This is what you are encountering.

So to summarise, the answer to your question is yes. You need to rev it to extract the same performance to what you are used to. To a certain extent you need to overlook the thought that you are harming it by using the entire rev range. If it makes you feel any better, at Swindon they did systematic durability tests where they ran test engines in the red line for hours on end, then stripped them down and catalogued all the parts.

Remember Honda started out as a motorcycle manufacturer and a lot of that knowledge was ported across to their car engine designs. Their engines are their strongest asset in my honest opinion.

 

[Cobblepop]

Wow! thanks for the incredibly detailed and informative answers gents.

I fully accept this car is a different animal to my previous vehicles so I don't feel too down about it, I just felt like I might not be driving it in a way to extract the performance. It's almost like I wanted someone to tell me it's ok to rev the hell out of it as it's just not something I'm used to doing!

I'll be taking it out for a run in the Peak District at the weekend so lets see how it goes around the twisties... if you don't see an update from me over the weekend you can assume it didn't go well and that I may be dead.

Fingers crossed.

 

[hondamad2204]

Yes. Rev the nuts off it. It‘ll be fine enjoy

 

[ollieh17]

Don't change gear until it goes 'baa baaa baa' and the needles bounces backwards and forwards

 

[spooke]

Should have bought a Type R :xaiweb6:, a Type S cannot be compared to a DC5R...

Engine Application Compression Power Torque Redline Rev limiter i-VTEC engagement

2001–2006 Honda Integra Type R (JDM) 11.5:1 217 hp (162 kW) @ 8000 RPM 152 lb⋅ft (206 N⋅m) @ 7000 RPM 8400 RPM 8600 RPM 6000 RPM

2002–2006 Acura RSX 9.8:1 160 hp (120 kW) @ 6500 RPM 141 lb⋅ft (191 N⋅m) @ 4000 RPM 6800 RPM 2200 RPM

 

[big-pete]

Sounds silly... and probably is.

I've only ever owned turbo diesel cars and the power delivery is quite different in my NA DC5 which I've now been driving for a week. My last car was a MK1 Seat Leon FR with approx 190bhp and whilst I only have the Type S delivering 160bhp, I can't help but feel underwhelmed by the performance.

I know the DC5 isn't a power car as such and I am used to driving high torque engines but I can't seem to make this car move, especially on the motorway. If I'm in a high gear and put my foot down it takes an age to climb the revs (I'm talking 90bhp Nissan Micra style) and I'm convinced VTEC is a myth as I've never felt or heard anything close to what I've read about!

Am I supposed to rev the living hell out of this car to extract any performance? It's just not what I'm used to doing after driving turbo diesels all my life and I can't help but feel I'm hurting the car, which is backed up by the slight burning smell in the cabin whenever I do!

It sounds like I'm being pretty negative but everything else about the car is fantastic. The handling, the noise and the looks are all great, I just can't get the thing moving!

Can anyone offer any DC5 driving tips and maybe a decent garage in the Yorkshire area where I can take the car to check it over and make sure everything is firing as it should?

had a PD160 at 200hp/305ftlbs(daily) anda 240Hp/250ftlbs Bocanegra as my last cars.

both have 100+FTLBS on my R, the diesel made peak tourqe at 2k rpm(all 300ftlbs!!) which made the car FEEL fast, but the speedo just didnt mimic the maddness inside the car. (Type R peak tourqe is 7k rpm so to make it FEEL fast it has to be up in the revs)

type R on the motorway will get walked by most diesels nowadays- thats not what its designed for. Hit a twisty B road and just rev the **** till the needle bounces and it makes bwap bwap bwap noises then change gear and do it again.

link to how it should be driven
https://www.instagram.com/p/BlXp_B6Duto/?hl=en&taken-by=big_pete23

 

[Filkmeister]

It's not really a "stupid" question, it's fair enough.

However, you should be aware that as someone more articulate than me(!) once famously said:

"Here's the Type R and Honda say that the R apparently stands for "racing" and they're really not joking!!!"

The DC5 and all the Type Rs are incredible value for money machines. The Type S has some underpinnings, but is not comparable. For overall handling and performance though it'll go alright. The previous posts say it all, just few things to add. You really do need to understand a bit about performance driving and the behaviour of front wheel drive cars to appreciate how good they are. Modern diesels are rather deceptive in many respects, not least their kerb weight. Don't get bogged down in power figures and subjective sensations of speed. Whilst not a featherweight the DC5 is significantly lighter than modern cars and here lies part of the magic, less weight to get moving, accelerate and slow down and respectable power output i.e. good power to weight ratio. Combine this with a decent 'box and you have a terrific combination.

Get a feel for Honda handling and if the bug bites then save up for a Type R :xyes:

 

[big-pete]

It's not really a "stupid" question, it's fair enough.

However, you should be aware that as someone more articulate than me(!) once famously said:

"Here's the Type R and Honda say that the R apparently stands for "racing" and they're really not joking!!!"

The DC5 and all the Type Rs are incredible value for money machines. The Type S has some underpinnings, but is not comparable. For overall handling and performance though it'll go alright. The previous posts say it all, just few things to add. You really do need to understand a bit about performance driving and the behaviour of front wheel drive cars to appreciate how good they are. Modern diesels are rather deceptive in many respects, not least their kerb weight. Don't get bogged down in power figures and subjective sensations of speed. Whilst not a featherweight the DC5 is significantly lighter than modern cars and here lies part of the magic, less weight to get moving, accelerate and slow down and respectable power output i.e. good power to weight ratio. Combine this with a decent 'box and you have a terrific combination.

Get a feel for Honda handling and if the bug bites then save up for a Type R :xyes:

tyres and suspention make the DC5 a proper B road weapon. wont be much that keeps up with a good driver in a Type R on sticky rubber with a decent suspention setup

 

[ste01]

As I said a few time, I've got a 180bhp TDI Ibiza (similar to your Leon), have owned a civic type S (same engine as your DC5) and have had a couple of DC5 type Rs so have experience in the differences.

1. Your DC5 will feel much slower than your Leon because of the torque delivery.

2. It will be slower too. In a straight line (not off the line, from 30mph+) my Ibiza (and probably your Leon) is quicker than a type R integra so your type s will be slower again.

3. The VTEC in the K20A3 isn't anything like in the K20A. It doesn't surge or have a sudden feel of urgency. It is more about economy at the low end rather than performance at the top end. But you still need to redline it to get any sort of power, about 7600-7800rpm. Just don't go bouncing off the limiter. Sounds a bit odd with the burning smell though....

Finally there isn't any specific way to drive a DC5, just use your gears just like any other car. You learn about the power delivery of the engine and choose a gear to suit what you want to do.

Your type S will probably be slightly heavier than the type R too. Changing the seats and stripping out the rear seat could help...

 

[Fez]

160hp and 1288kg(internet quote for type s)
Is 124hp/ton
And with the longer gears they have, it will never really feel that lively tbf.