Timing chain replacement

[Tricktyper]

Servicing my car soon along with putting a baffled sump and a few other goodies as I plan to spend more time on track this year.

Whilst talking to various garages I asked whether I should be considering changing my timing chain as im closing in on 110,000 miles. Im unsure whether its ever been done before, but the response ive been getting is yes, anything over 100,000 miles and they strongly recommend changing the timing chain.

After doing a search on the forum there seems to be an overwhelming contradiction to that, and have seen comments from multiple people saying dont change it unless its broken. Excuse my naivety here, but can I ask why the majority on here say not to change it? I would of thought its the kind of thing that if it ever started causing a problem, you've got big engine issues and should be done before you get that stage?

Happy to be told im wrong! Thanks in advance...

 

[bxlheathsupra]

Im with you on that, its one of them peice o mind items i think. The chains are meant to be long lasting but for peice of mind you may aswell do it along with guides and tensioner.

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[carl hammond]

Yeah been thinking the same recently, still under 100K miles but I think I will get it done at the end of the year start of 2020 just so I know it's been done

 

[Tricktyper]

Thanks both! Useful to know your thoughts on it too... I think I will end up getting it done for piece of mind but people on here are pretty knowledgeable so just wanted to ask why some people had the opinion to leave it alone until there is an issue.

 

[carl hammond]

Thanks both! Useful to know your thoughts on it too... I think I will end up getting it done for piece of mind but people on here are pretty knowledgeable so just wanted to ask why some people had the opinion to leave it alone until there is an issue.

It's not like a cambelt so you'll know when its starting to stretch as I don't believe I have ever heard of one fully going, they just get a little noisy as they stretch. I don't know how much one is to do and mines making no noise whatsoever so I assume it's been done at some point or it's just perfect still but I track the car mainly now so want it to be 100% all the time and as it's not really used much I have no issue with the car being gone for a while. If yours isn't rattling and making a distinct noise to show signs of wear just get it done as and when you want and can mate but doesn't sound like it actually needs doing if that makes sense.

 

[bxlheathsupra]

As carl says, unless you have documentation saying its been done and your happy with the time scales then juat get it done.
Mine will go in once ive got the money aside for it purely just to ease my mind.
Probably get valve clearences sorted at the same time again for peice of mine as its all opened up

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[Crazylegs]

Difficult decision for you as technically speaking, they should never need doing. I had to change mine on my previous DC5 as it was making a horrible rattling noise for about a year. Grinspeed were happy to check mine at the same time I was having my valve clearances done and they showed me how it had skipped a tooth and the timing was out. They explained that they've never seen a K20 fail from a timing chain but for the sake of a 2k JDM engine going pop, may as well get it done to be on the safe side. My advice would be to get a specialist look at it, the likes of Grinspeed, TGM, Area Motorsport etc and if it's fine leave it, if it's stretched then change it for a new one. It's a £600 job you do realise that? Not cheap.

 

[carl hammond]

Difficult decision for you as technically speaking, they should never need doing. I had to change mine on my previous DC5 as it was making a horrible rattling noise for about a year. Grinspeed were happy to check mine at the same time I was having my valve clearances done and they showed me how it had skipped a tooth and the timing was out. They explained that they've never seen a K20 fail from a timing chain but for the sake of a 2k JDM engine going pop, may as well get it done to be on the safe side. My advice would be to get a specialist look at it, the likes of Grinspeed, TGM, Area Motorsport etc and if it's fine leave it, if it's stretched then change it for a new one. It's a £600 job you do realise that? Not cheap.

This is all very good to consider as I did have my valve clearances checked (both in 2017 after buying the car and again in 2018) and all was spot on, I didn't know the cost of the chain tensioner replacement etc however so good to know

 

[bxlheathsupra]

The garage i use recommends to change all the guides etc and think it was just over 500quid however i think i need an uprated tensioner due to my cams so probably need to pay a bit more.


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[jpstyper]

I had a civic ep3 that went to 170000 before a eml popped up with cam sensor and the chain had skipped a tooth so they do last longer that 100000 but as with everything they don't last forever to replace the chain guides and tensioner if doing it yourself was only 300 for genuine honda parts aswell not a hard job either

 

[Crazylegs]

This is all very good to consider as I did have my valve clearances checked (both in 2017 after buying the car and again in 2018) and all was spot on, I didn't know the cost of the chain tensioner replacement etc however so good to know

No probs mate! If the rocker cover and head is off then it's pretty straightforward to check. If the timing is out then generally the chain will have stretched. Stevie actually showed me how much it had skipped a tooth and it was clearly visible when comparing the old chain against the new one once it was out of the car. I'd say if its fine then leave it.

 

[Crazylegs]

The garage i use recommends to change all the guides etc and think it was just over 500quid however i think i need an uprated tensioner due to my cams so probably need to pay a bit more.


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Sounds about right. It's quite a hefty job I believe but Grinspeed did mine no bother.

 

[Tricktyper]

Difficult decision for you as technically speaking, they should never need doing. I had to change mine on my previous DC5 as it was making a horrible rattling noise for about a year. Grinspeed were happy to check mine at the same time I was having my valve clearances done and they showed me how it had skipped a tooth and the timing was out. They explained that they've never seen a K20 fail from a timing chain but for the sake of a 2k JDM engine going pop, may as well get it done to be on the safe side. My advice would be to get a specialist look at it, the likes of Grinspeed, TGM, Area Motorsport etc and if it's fine leave it, if it's stretched then change it for a new one. It's a £600 job you do realise that? Not cheap.

This is interesting to know! Yeh, I realise its not cheap. Average price im getting is around £500 all in which is why im questioning its necessity to be replaced. Grinspeed have a fixed price of £590 supplied and fitted. I had my valve clearances checked a year and a bit ago and they were only ever so slightly out. That couple with no noises at all from my car its probably absolutely fine, but as I plan to do many more track sessions this year, along with the fact I use the DC5 daily il think il have to bite the bullet and just get it done for piece of mind.

Appreciate everyones advice on the subject though.

 

[Crazylegs]

Yes 500-600 seems about right. I think Stevie said they're seeing more and more K20's with stretched chains now. They're not new cars anymore and most of them have had the sh*t cained out of them lol. If you have the money there and you want to be safe then get it done. I personally think the car will be alright bud. Most on here track their cars and no one has reported one exploding on track.

 

[MikeH89]

My old EP3 started to rattle a little at 97,829 miles. Presumably because the tensioner could no longer take up the slack as the chain had stretched.

I expect you'll be fine, and you'll know about it if you need to get it changed.

I fitted the chain myself and to be honest, its not rocket science, it took me a full day (home mechanic!) but only cost me circa £150 in parts and that was for genuine stuff too.

I purchased all the guides but the old ones had no visible wear so I sent them back and got a refund.

If I did it again, which I would, I would buy a Borg Warner chain, Borg Warner make the chain for Honda, so you get the same part but just without the Honda sticker and it saves you quite a bit of money...

https://japserviceparts.co.uk/honda-civic-integra-ep3-fn2-dc5-k20a-timing-chain.html

https://japserviceparts.co.uk/oem-borg-warner-timing-chain-honda-civic-type-r-ep3-integra-dc5-k20.html

https://japserviceparts.co.uk/honda-civic-integra-ep3-dc5-timing-chain-tensioner-genuine-honda-japan.html

Buy yourself some loctite silicone suitable for oil contact along with a couple of O-Rings to make sure you don't have any oil leaks and you'll be good to go.

O-Rings Parts 6 & 7
https://jp-carparts.com/honda/partlist.php?maker=honda&type=INTEGRA%203D&cartype=25407&fig=E&fig1=1110

 

[hondamad2204]

I took mine in thinking it was chain related years ago, turned out to be the VTC cam gear on the end of the camshaft that was making the rattle. TGM inspected it and said my 100k plus chain was still well within tolerance. He said that maintenance is key with these.

I ended up changing it anyway as it all had to come apart to get this gear off so I opted for new to go on...only made sense, and opted at the time for the FD2 guide set putting on (helps stop the risk of the chain skipping a tooth). But from what I understand the FD2 part is now the only guides you can actually buy from Honda? (Don‘t quote me in that)

If you‘ve got the money and yours is worn (getbthe tension checked) then get it done. If your cars well maintained, and again after an inspection it‘s well within it‘s tolerance I‘d leave it be. But as with anything it‘s an item that‘s always spinning so I‘d treat as wear and tear item maintenance and monitoring is going to help.

Just get your tensioniers checked first by a specialist , if anything it may put your mind at rest.

 

[Mark_teg]

I think most things have been said, but just to clarify:

Timing chains are designed to be maintenance free i.e. Last the life of an engine. Though, a harsh gearchange (selecting incorrect whilst downshift) or bouncing off the limiter can stretch them and make them jump a tooth.

I wouldn't change the chain-set just because you've reached 100k miles..
Honda recommend the tensioner is checked at 100k miles and this is what I would do. Any garage that knows their stuff will be able to tell you how far the tensioner has left (it works like a ratchet), though I'd rather use somebody familiar with the K20, and this will give you an idea of whether to change it or not.

Also, valve clearances make no difference to the timing chain, though makes sense for them to be checked the same time when the rocker cover is off.

James - good info about the fd2 guides, I didn't know that!

 

[20Drift]

I ended up changing it anyway as it all had to come apart to get this gear off so I opted for new to go on...only made sense, and opted at the time for the FD2 guide set putting on (helps stop the risk of the chain skipping a tooth). But from what I understand the FD2 part is now the only guides you can actually buy from Honda? (Don‘t quote me in that)

Had the exact same thing - had a rattle so took it to TGM to inspect and they changed the chain and tensioners anyway with the FD2 guides. Worth the money imo for peace of mind!

 

[masterjedijay]

I had my changed for the first time at 210k and when TGM showed me the chain it wasn't that badly stretched. I had no problems before I changed it but Tom had recommended I change it as a precaution given it had done over 200k. I don't drive like a loon but I have tracked her and regularly give it a blast. Timing chains are for the life of the engine but if its been driven hard all the time I would change it for peace of mind. I had the FD2 guides fitted as well.

 

[Crazylegs]

I took mine in thinking it was chain related years ago, turned out to be the VTC cam gear on the end of the camshaft that was making the rattle. TGM inspected it and said my 100k plus chain was still well within tolerance. He said that maintenance is key with these.

I ended up changing it anyway as it all had to come apart to get this gear off so I opted for new to go on...only made sense, and opted at the time for the FD2 guide set putting on (helps stop the risk of the chain skipping a tooth). But from what I understand the FD2 part is now the only guides you can actually buy from Honda? (Don‘t quote me in that)

If you‘ve got the money and yours is worn (getbthe tension checked) then get it done. If your cars well maintained, and again after an inspection it‘s well within it‘s tolerance I‘d leave it be. But as with anything it‘s an item that‘s always spinning so I‘d treat as wear and tear item maintenance and monitoring is going to help.

Just get your tensioniers checked first by a specialist , if anything it may put your mind at rest.

Hi mate, how do you know if the VTC gear is making the noise or is damaged or can you only tell once it's being inspected with the cover off etc?

Also how much was the VTC to be replaced including labour?

Cheers