BC Racing Vs Meister CRD+ (£750.00 budget)

[MeisterR]

Well, as far as info on the ZetaCRD+ for the DC5, I would say that it is pretty bang on for the DC5 chassis.

What I mean by that is with a car on track, you generally want to be hitting 100% critical damping at full stiff.
With most adjustable dampers, generally you have some range plus or minus at the top.
A good damper would be close, and a poor damper could be really far from that critical damping force; but as you can expect it is rare that you get them almost perfect.

On the DC5 ZetaCRD+, it is one of those cases where it is almost perfect.
So most customers going on track with EP3 / DC5, I can say if it is dry and you are on good tyres, turn the damping to full stiff.

I know with the ZetaCRD+ at full stiff, you literally is at critical damping with the DC5 chassis.
Maybe 1 or 2 clicks off full stiff... but it is pretty much as close as you are going to get with an adjustable damper.
For fast road use, you back those damping force down to around the 50% to 70% area for a good ride compliancy.

Basically, the ZetaCRD+ was vehicle dynamically calculated to work.
We didn't just pick some springs rate, and paired it with some damper, and hope it all works well.
The entire system was designed to work via vehicle dynamic calculation... and I know not many suspension supplier can say that.

In terms of performance, I am honestly willing to pitch the ZetaCRD+ against most adjustable mono-tube suspension.
If you cover up the brands, put it on a dyno, and ask the opinion of any vehicle dynamic engineer, most wouldn't think it cost below £1000.
The ZetaCRD+ is honestly a very good fast road & track setup purely looking at it from a technical point of view.


Jerrick

 

[Sylar122]

Well, as far as info on the ZetaCRD+ for the DC5, I would say that it is pretty bang on for the DC5 chassis.

What I mean by that is with a car on track, you generally want to be hitting 100% critical damping at full stiff.
With most adjustable dampers, generally you have some range plus or minus at the top.
A good damper would be close, and a poor damper could be really far from that critical damping force; but as you can expect it is rare that you get them almost perfect.

On the DC5 ZetaCRD+, it is one of those cases where it is almost perfect.
So most customers going on track with EP3 / DC5, I can say if it is dry and you are on good tyres, turn the damping to full stiff.

I know with the ZetaCRD+ at full stiff, you literally is at critical damping with the DC5 chassis.
Maybe 1 or 2 clicks off full stiff... but it is pretty much as close as you are going to get with an adjustable damper.
For fast road use, you back those damping force down to around the 50% to 70% area for a good ride compliancy.

Basically, the ZetaCRD+ was vehicle dynamically calculated to work.
We didn't just pick some springs rate, and paired it with some damper, and hope it all works well.
The entire system was designed to work via vehicle dynamic calculation... and I know not many suspension supplier can say that.

In terms of performance, I am honestly willing to pitch the ZetaCRD+ against most adjustable mono-tube suspension.
If you cover up the brands, put it on a dyno, and ask the opinion of any vehicle dynamic engineer, most wouldn't think it cost below £1000.
The ZetaCRD+ is honestly a very good fast road & track setup purely looking at it from a technical point of view.

Jerrick

Hi jerrick

Some good info here! I have the Zeta R coilovers you use to do. Is there much difference between the Zeta r and crd+ to warrant an upgrade? Am I going to notice the difference? I'm very happy with the Zeta R's doing mainly fast road and some track this year.

Thanks


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[Chrismartin]

Well, as far as info on the ZetaCRD+ for the DC5, I would say that it is pretty bang on for the DC5 chassis.

What I mean by that is with a car on track, you generally want to be hitting 100% critical damping at full stiff.
With most adjustable dampers, generally you have some range plus or minus at the top.
A good damper would be close, and a poor damper could be really far from that critical damping force; but as you can expect it is rare that you get them almost perfect.

On the DC5 ZetaCRD+, it is one of those cases where it is almost perfect.
So most customers going on track with EP3 / DC5, I can say if it is dry and you are on good tyres, turn the damping to full stiff.

I know with the ZetaCRD+ at full stiff, you literally is at critical damping with the DC5 chassis.
Maybe 1 or 2 clicks off full stiff... but it is pretty much as close as you are going to get with an adjustable damper.
For fast road use, you back those damping force down to around the 50% to 70% area for a good ride compliancy.

Basically, the ZetaCRD+ was vehicle dynamically calculated to work.
We didn't just pick some springs rate, and paired it with some damper, and hope it all works well.
The entire system was designed to work via vehicle dynamic calculation... and I know not many suspension supplier can say that.

In terms of performance, I am honestly willing to pitch the ZetaCRD+ against most adjustable mono-tube suspension.
If you cover up the brands, put it on a dyno, and ask the opinion of any vehicle dynamic engineer, most wouldn't think it cost below £1000.
The ZetaCRD+ is honestly a very good fast road & track setup purely looking at it from a technical point of view.

Jerrick

Fantastic post Jerrick. When you talk about spring rates if you are referring to my post above where I mentioned spring rated not suited to the DC5, I meant the BC ones rather than yourselves!

 

[MeisterR]

Hi jerrick

Some good info here! I have the Zeta R coilovers you use to do. Is there much difference between the Zeta r and crd+ to warrant an upgrade? Am I going to notice the difference? I'm very happy with the Zeta R's doing mainly fast road and some track this year.

Thanks

The main advantage of the ZetaCRD is the CRD (Close Ratio Damping) damper valving.
Specifically, you get good changes in compression force thought out the adjustments, and that is heart of the entire system.

The Zeta-R is similar to what you would get from KW Variant 2 coilovers.
While the Zeta-R compression do change, the change are minimal especially on the front damper.
Therefore, as you increase the damping, you aren't actually putting any more load into the tyres.
This mean the car feel more planted, but you aren't forcing the tyres to generate more traction.

The ZetaCRD+ on the other hand is similar to what you would get from Bilstein B16 / PSS9.
The compression have a good ratio changes with the rebound force throughout the adjustments.
Therefore, as you increase the damping, the higher compression force load the tyres harder and generate more traction.
The higher compression force also mean the steering will feel more direct, turn in will be "crisp".

On softer setting, the ZetaCRD will ride as nice but will be more responsive than the Zeta-R because there are more compression force.
On stiffer setting, the ZetaCRD will be a lot more responsive, much sharper steering response, and better traction.
The stiffer you set the damping on the ZetaCRD, the brighter it shine against everything else that lack compression force changes.

When you are running very stiff on a track event, then jump in another car that lack compression valving.
You will know as clear as day and night the difference, because it will feel completely different even if the springs rate is the same.

Jerrick

 

[MeisterR]

Fantastic post Jerrick. When you talk about spring rates if you are referring to my post above where I mentioned spring rated not suited to the DC5, I meant the BC ones rather than yourselves!

Not referring to your post at all, just in general regarding springs rate.

The thing is we have fallen into a "bad habit", and that is using harder springs to compensate for lack of compression force.
While behind the steering wheels feels similar, the way the car works dynamically is completely different.

The ZetaCRD+ for the DC5 had the springs rate work out and work out again.
Than the damper valving paired to make sure it all works vehicle dynamically.
That is why when people ask me if they can change the springs rate, I am reluctant to do so as I know it will probably deliver poorer performance.

A case is something that we are working on at the moment with the Super Cooper Cup (Mini Cooper Racing Series).
The series uses BC last year and the organiser isn't very satisfy with the performance or the support.
So they approach me last year to see if we can do something for them in 2017.

I made up a more specific racing kit for them, and had them test it out just to confirm that they are happy with the performance.
We work the dynamics out for the Mini and the springs rate work out 8kg/mm front and 8kg/mm rear.
However, the organiser said that all the faster Mini was using 8kg/mm front and 10kg/mm rear in order to have the car "rotate".

I work the number out again, told them to "trust us" and use the 8kg/mm front and rear.
If it doesn't work during the testing, we can change them.

So off they go for testing, and came back to said that the rear was really good, rotate very well, felt much stiffer than the previous BC setup, and actually still have more adjustments available.
I explain to them that is "compression force" working... because the damper is actually working the tyres correctly, and so you can actually use the damping to "dial out" the understeer that they were worry about.

What this mean is if they want the rear to rotate, they can stiffen the damping,
If they want to rear to be more stable (such as rain), they can soften the damping.
This is how damping adjustment work to control vehicle dynamics of a car, not an option if you are just slapping on harder springs.

Jerrick

 

[Chrismartin]

Not referring to your post at all, just in general regarding springs rate.

The thing is we have fallen into a "bad habit", and that is using harder springs to compensate for lack of compression force.
While behind the steering wheels feels similar, the way the car works dynamically is completely different.

The ZetaCRD+ for the DC5 had the springs rate work out and work out again.
Than the damper valving paired to make sure it all works vehicle dynamically.
That is why when people ask me if they can change the springs rate, I am reluctant to do so as I know it will probably deliver poorer performance.

A case is something that we are working on at the moment with the Super Cooper Cup (Mini Cooper Racing Series).
The series uses BC last year and the organiser isn't very satisfy with the performance or the support.
So they approach me last year to see if we can do something for them in 2017.

I made up a more specific racing kit for them, and had them test it out just to confirm that they are happy with the performance.
We work the dynamics out for the Mini and the springs rate work out 8kg/mm front and 8kg/mm rear.
However, the organiser said that all the faster Mini was using 8kg/mm front and 10kg/mm rear in order to have the car "rotate".

I work the number out again, told them to "trust us" and use the 8kg/mm front and rear.
If it doesn't work during the testing, we can change them.

So off they go for testing, and came back to said that the rear was really good, rotate very well, felt much stiffer than the previous BC setup, and actually still have more adjustments available.
I explain to them that is "compression force" working... because the damper is actually working the tyres correctly, and so you can actually use the damping to "dial out" the understeer that they were worry about.

What this mean is if they want the rear to rotate, they can stiffen the damping,
If they want to rear to be more stable (such as rain), they can soften the damping.
This is how damping adjustment work to control vehicle dynamics of a car, not an option if you are just slapping on harder springs.

Jerrick

Think I'm sold Jerrick lol. Good sales person you'd make 🖒😉

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[MeisterR]

Think I'm sold Jerrick lol. Good sales person you'd make

I guess in it is "sales" in a way, but honestly I am not trying to pitch anything.
Everything I say is either works that MeisterR had done, result that we have got, or principles that are generally accepted.

If you read what I posted, and just change MeisterR to Ohlins, the entire post should still make sense.

I try to provide information that I know, and answer questions that are directed to me.
Sometime (well... many time) the answer is pages long, because everything is quite long winded.
As BAD said to me, this isn't suppose to be easy... because if it was, then everyone would be doing it.

Sometime I wish I knew about how difficult and technical this would get when MeisterR started back in 2008. =P

Jerrick

 

[Chrismartin]

I guess in it is "sales" in a way, but honestly I am not trying to pitch anything.
Everything I say is either works that MeisterR had done, result that we have got, or principles that are generally accepted.

If you read what I posted, and just change MeisterR to Ohlins, the entire post should still make sense.

I try to provide information that I know, and answer questions that are directed to me.
Sometime (well... many time) the answer is pages long, because everything is quite long winded.
As BAD said to me, this isn't suppose to be easy... because if it was, then everyone would be doing it.

Sometime I wish I knew about how difficult and technical this would get when MeisterR started back in 2008. =P

Jerrick

I only joke mate. I massively appreciate that you have come the forum to shed some light on suspension in general for the DC5 and it has definitely improved my non existent knowledge of suspension mate! Thank you very much
Chris

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[Liam]

I've ordered some Bilstein B16s brand new for a bit of a fluke price. Drop me a PM if you want some details.

They arrived yesterday so I'll share what seems to be pretty competitive prices for anyone wanting brand new Bilsteins.

I'm convinced carparts4less operate under the same umbrella as Eurocarparts but they never confirm - they used to share the same website design and they still share part numbers, so anything you find on the Euro site you'll find on carparts4less for a much better price if you search for the part number.

If you select Civic EP3 as your vehicle on the carparts4less site, you won't find the B14 or B16 kits anywhere. However, using the above trick...
B14 - http://www.carparts4less.co.uk/search/938600040/p/home
B16 - http://www.carparts4less.co.uk/search/938600210/p/home

If you bide your time, you'll see CP4L run discount codes in the range of 10-15%. They ran 15% at new year (when I ordered) and a 12% on Monday of this week, so best case you're looking at £700 for the B14 and £1030 ish for the B16 kit.

I'm not convinced the discount codes should be applied to the Bilsteins so enjoy the glitch while it lasts.

 

[MilanoChris]

I paid £1200 for mine IIRC from TGM.

 

[Rogue Status]

Liam thanks for that trick! Just ordered some B14's! Saved me £50 on the cheapest I could find anywhere. Have you fitted yours yet?

 

[Liam]

Liam thanks for that trick! Just ordered some B14's! Saved me £50 on the cheapest I could find anywhere. Have you fitted yours yet?

Happy to help. Super impressed with the quality of them so far. Aiming to get them fitted over the next couple of months. I still need to get EP3 track rod ends and some suitable washers for the rear dampers - the OEM DC5 ones measure at 44.5mm, so I'll check the Bilsteins and find some washers to make up the difference.

 

[Liam]

They arrived yesterday so I'll share what seems to be pretty competitive prices for anyone wanting brand new Bilsteins.

I'm convinced carparts4less operate under the same umbrella as Eurocarparts but they never confirm - they used to share the same website design and they still share part numbers, so anything you find on the Euro site you'll find on carparts4less for a much better price if you search for the part number.

If you select Civic EP3 as your vehicle on the carparts4less site, you won't find the B14 or B16 kits anywhere. However, using the above trick...
B14 - http://www.carparts4less.co.uk/search/938600040/p/home
B16 - http://www.carparts4less.co.uk/search/938600210/p/home

If you bide your time, you'll see CP4L run discount codes in the range of 10-15%. They ran 15% at new year (when I ordered) and a 12% on Monday of this week, so best case you're looking at £700 for the B14 and £1030 ish for the B16 kit.

I'm not convinced the discount codes should be applied to the Bilsteins so enjoy the glitch while it lasts.

They're currently running code 'WEEKENDSALE' which is valid till Sunday - 12% off the above links which brings the B14 to £723 and B16 to £1070.

And no I'm not on commission. :xaiweb5:

 

[Rogue Status]

Yea I need to get some washers but I've ordered EP3 track tod ends and few other suspension bits lol might as well do it properly! Not sure if the coilovers will come though had an email this morning ...

"Thank you for your order Unfortunately the part you ordered is a non-stock item and we are currently checking price and availability with our special order's team. We shall update you accordingly within 24 to 48 hours. "

 

[Liam]

Yea I need to get some washers but I've ordered EP3 track tod ends and few other suspension bits lol might as well do it properly! Not sure if the coilovers will come though had an email this morning ...

"Thank you for your order Unfortunately the part you ordered is a non-stock item and we are currently checking price and availability with our special order's team. We shall update you accordingly within 24 to 48 hours. "

I got the same e-mail from them when I ordered mine - the coilovers arrived a week later.

 

[Rogue Status]

Oh that's good news then thanks again mate!

 

[ep3kamal]

What else is needed to fit the b14 to the dc5 apart from ep3 track rod ends ????

 

[Liam]

What else is needed to fit the b14 to the dc5 apart from ep3 track rod ends ????

Just a couple of M12 washers for the bottom of each rear damper I believe as the EP3 ones are narrower than DC5 dampers. You'll probably want some camber bolts too unless you're happy with the standard amount of camber or you're using aftermarket top mounts with camber adjustment.

 

[ijlh]

Are those Bilstein kits from Carparts4less definitely the correct ones? As they don't specify the model they are for. Just want to be 100% sure before i order them in a few months...

 

[Liam]

Are those Bilstein kits from Carparts4less definitely the correct ones? As they don't specify the model they are for. Just want to be 100% sure before i order them in a few months...

They are indeed. If you want to confirm, select Civic EP3 on Eurocarparts and find the part numbers for the B14/ B16 kits. Use the part number of whichever one you want on Carparts4less - the two sites share the same part numbers.