Mapping... Concern?

[Fez]

Everyone wants to remap their cars because everyone else says its the single best mod you can do with the k20 etc, and they always make impressive figures, which is great. And I wanted mine done, but i had mine dyno'd the other day with mani/decat and air filter and the afr's were good and made 10whp more than when it was standard (when i first bought the car) So i didn't see a rush to get it done and would rather spend that money on track days and improving my driving.
So last week at cadwell park there was an ep3 there, on the straights there was nothing in it, but he was a better driver on the corners so I let him passed, but on the uphill section i was actually quicker than him and was catching him.
When we came off i went over to chat to him and he said how well my car goes and asked what power it was making and I said standard power, it made 216 on the dyno, he looked shocked, and said his was mapped and 250hp (tdi) which also shocked me then lol. Even more so when i saw that it was completely stripped inside, buckets, after market steering wheel, no carpets, carbon bonnet, coilovers, stainless exhaust, aftermarket wheels etc, so it was a fair bit lighter than my full fat dc5.

Also, When I first got my dc5 (totally standard, with slipping clutch) i had a play with my mates mapped dc5, again tdi mapped 252hp, rbc, stainless exhaust, cf bonnet, coilovers, wheels, steering wheel, buckets etc etc so again much lighter than mine, from mid rpm 3rd gear, we stayed next to eachother, i struggled getting in to 4th, so he pulled half a car length or so then stayed there through 4th.

So what i'm getting at is that these guys have spent a fair bit of cash getting their cars lighter and more powerful.. And everyone says after a map the car feels better and drives better etc, But the 2 i have seen that have been mapped haven't really given me any confidence to go spend the money, because against a standard car/alot less modded/unmapped.. They aren't actually any quicker.

I'm not sure if this post is a question or a statement lol. But it's got me confused, i'm happy that mines pretty quick, but confused as I have no where near that power, and thats the power i wanted if i were to map it, but..... they just didn't sell it to me.

Does anyone have any laptimes/quarter mile times /proof that their cars are that much faster after mapping? Because i would think 30-40hp more(peak) And the fact that they are 50-150kg's lighter than mine they would be considerably alot faster, and mine wouldn't even get close, but thats not the case.

 

[Bewesy]

I had a similar experience in my DC2. Was being chased round Croft by a JDM DC2 that was quicker than me, gaining maybe half a second or a second a lap, who I eventually let passed.

We had a chat in the pit area afterwards and his had track tyres, stripped out, buckets, coil-overs, geo-setup, and could have had a remap too (although I cant remember for sure).

He said "What's yours had done to it then?"
Me: "A decat pipe, thats it."
Him: "Oh...."

The problem with the 'proper' type Rs is they are already highly tuned and dialled in so you can chuck a load of money at them without actually gaining much performance. You can definitely get a better 'feeling' car, but just because it feels better doesn't always make it any faster.

I've just swapped some perfectly good Goodyear Eagles (rears were nearly new) for some RE070s and am getting it booked it for a FRSU - its probably wont make it shyte of difference from a laptime point of view but I bet it will 'feel' better for it. (It already feels better on the tyres.)

 

[integraleo]

After mapping it's nothing to do with peak gains it's all about the mid range and increased usability. For example after my first map I gained 17hp peak but around 35hp between 4000-6000 rpm. When flat out it didn't really feel much faster but during normal driving it's so much better! Earlier vtec point changes the whole character of the engine and the increased torque makes it easier to make progress when not wanting to rev the nuts off it. Makes it feel like a bigger engine to drive.

 

[Fez]

I had a similar experience in my DC2. Was being chased round Croft by a JDM DC2 that was quicker than me, gaining maybe half a second or a second a lap, who I eventually let passed.

We had a chat in the pit area afterwards and his had track tyres, stripped out, buckets, coil-overs, geo-setup, and could have had a remap too (although I cant remember for sure).

He said "What's yours had done to it then?"
Me: "A decat pipe, thats it."
Him: "Oh...."

The problem with the 'proper' type Rs is they are already highly tuned and dialled in so you can chuck a load of money at them without actually gaining much performance. You can definitely get a better 'feeling' car, but just because it feels better doesn't always make it any faster.

I've just swapped some perfectly good Goodyear Eagles (rears were nearly new) for some RE070s and am getting it booked it for a FRSU - its probably wont make it shyte of difference from a laptime point of view but I bet it will 'feel' better for it. (It already feels better on the tyres.)

I'm not chasing laptimes but i would be gutted if i was, after spending all that money and a standard car wasn't 'that' far behind lol. I know in racing a second is a lifetime though lol.

 

[Fez]

After mapping it's nothing to do with peak gains it's all about the mid range and increased usability. For example after my first map I gained 17hp peak but around 35hp between 4000-6000 rpm. When flat out it didn't really feel much faster but during normal driving it's so much better! Earlier vtec point changes the whole character of the engine and the increased torque makes it easier to make progress when not wanting to rev the nuts off it. Makes it feel like a bigger engine to drive.

I know its not all about the peak, but even when next to my mates teg, which i'm guessing had the usual 30hp gain and whatever torque, in the mid with vtec coming in at 4k, i wasn't even in vtec i had to wait, and he was still next to me not going anywhere, but when my vtec came in i didn't go anywhere either lol.

Atm i find mine very driveable around town, i guess up certain hills it would be nice not to have to drop down a gear lol, but then again if i wanted all the torque i'd buy a turbo diesel haha.

 

[Topgeezer]

It might be something to do with TDI's dyno readout........I'll get me coat.......

T.G.

 

[integraleo]

Unless you go boost there won't be all that much in it when you're talking about 30hp here and there. My nephew had an mb6 civic with the 1.8 b18c4 engine (169hp) which was modified with a set of dc2 cams,exhaust, filter,manifold decat and Vtec controller and dc2 gearbox. when mine was na around 230hp yes I was quicker but not by a huge amount. It takes a lot more hp to have a big gain

 

[moodyedge]

It might be something to do with TDI's dyno readout........I'll get me coat.......

T.G.

Yup.




It's torque that makes a car feel fast so another 10 or 20 bhp will never feel much faster.

 

[Bewesy]

I'm not chasing laptimes but i would be gutted if i was, after spending all that money and a standard car wasn't 'that' far behind lol. I know in racing a second is a lifetime though lol.

It's all about the feel for me

 

[Rom]

All been covered really. 20-30 bhp isn't much. It's not going to be night and day difference.
Most people agree there's not much in it, between an EP3 and a DC5. Yet one weighs less, and has 20bhp more, and an lsd. Yet it's not leaving EP3s for dead. Faster yes, but not by much.
I think the DC5 is around 100kg lighter? You'd be surprised how little rear seats and carpets etc weigh.

Lap times only really count, if it's the same driver imo. And not a one off flyer. As a single bad corner can ruin the lap.

Dyno numbers matter less than the quality of the map. I mean if Tdis are inflated or not, is irrelevant. As by that logic, any car on their roller would also be inflated. Thus making the inflation meaningless. Ie if they dyno a Romain mapped, 230 bhp, it would be the same 250 they achieve. Unless map quality differs.

Having mine mapped was certainly worth it. Power is more usable, mpg is better, and launch control is lol.

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[Fez]

All been covered really. 20-30 bhp isn't much. It's not going to be night and day difference.
Most people agree there's not much in it, between an EP3 and a DC5. Yet one weighs less, and has 20bhp more, and an lsd. Yet it's not leaving EP3s for dead. Faster yes, but not by much.
I think the DC5 is around 100kg lighter? You'd be surprised how little rear seats and carpets etc weigh.

Lap times only really count, if it's the same driver imo. And not a one off flyer. As a single bad corner can ruin the lap.

Dyno numbers matter less than the quality of the map. I mean if Tdis are inflated or not, is irrelevant. As by that logic, any car on their roller would also be inflated. Thus making the inflation meaningless. Ie if they dyno a Romain mapped, 230 bhp, it would be the same 250 they achieve. Unless map quality differs.

Having mine mapped was certainly worth it. Power is more usable, mpg is better, and launch control is lol.

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Theres not a great deal between mine and my girlfriends ep3, but thats stripped. Mine is slightly quicker though.

A friend and I weighed our cars the same time, stock dc5 and stock ep3, full tool kit, spare wheel etc the dc5 was only 20kg lighter, but everywhere on the internet says there is about 100kg difference which is strange.. And a lie haha.

I was planning on going to tdi, regardless of their inflations that people talk of lol. But i thought they were good maps.

I know the figure of the dyno doesn't matter so much, but then that goes back to my original post, of where the car isn't actually any faster lol. Well compared to mine, might have been faster than before haha.

 

[moodyedge]

Ep3 v dc5 pretty much same car.......minor differences dont add up to much.

 

[MrRy]

Annnnddd you've opened up that can of worms that car modification brands and garages don't want you to. Marketing, placebos and BS are a big part of the car modification world.

To give my 2p - mapping for me is to make sure my AFR, ignition and timing is spot on and that my cars driveability is maximised for 99 ron. Always go on the quality of the drive, dyno graphs should show just the lines, not the numbers (apart from AFR). That would sort out a lot of forum crap for starters.

 

[DC5DAVE]

I have had quite a few EP3's and DC5's over the years but a car with the usual bolt ons and mapped I have always found to be much quicker than stock, you have vtec and much more useable power from usually 4500-8500rpm whereas the standard cars you are ringing their neck to keep them above 6k and they still feel lacking in power in comparison.

I have felt on some of the standard cars however that you get the odd one that feels quicker than another standard car of exactly the same spec, well serviced same size wheels and tyres etc, most likely a placebo. I know loads of people get completely carried away with how good certain mods are but breathing mods and a remap on a K20 in my opinion does transform them.

 

[truupR]

I went up with a friend to TDi to get his car mapped after having the usual mods carried out. I forget how much it made on the rollers, maybe 240ish bhp.

I got to drive it most of the way home and to be honest.. For the money he paid I really struggled to notice the difference. It felt abit more responsive, the lower VTEC engagement is nice but I'd have to disagree with the others who say it 'transforms' the car

I also got to drive it several times after he put a big turbo on it. Forced induction... now that transforms the car

 

[Liam]

It makes a huge difference to the mid range and perceived responsiveness of the car in my opinion. If all you care about is numbers, then yes you will be disappointed - mine only gained about 8-9bhp peak. £720 for that sort of peak gain isn't great economy, but that's how it goes with NA tuning.

Will it give you an extra few seconds per lap on a track day? Doubtful - spending the money on some instruction would be the best thing for that. So do I regret doing it? Absolutely not.

 

[truupR]

£720 for that sort of peak gain isn't great economy

While I have incredibly limited knowledge about cars/mechanics, I was under the impression that there's very little to be gained from remapping a stock engine. You need the usual mods which would be (just some rough examples):

Tegiwa exhaust manifold: £450
RBC inlet mani: £250
DC sports catback: £450
K&n typhoon intake: £200
K100 ecu: £350
remap (tdi): £720

total: £2420 for 10/20bhp gain....Prices would be more but I went for almost the lower end in terms of prices for these parts.

People are absolutely entitled to do what they want with their cars and the above is a great set of mods for the K20.. But at that price for that gain - and as the OP stated it seems to make very little actual difference when you're actually driving it. I can see why it's hard for some people to swallow.

I did feel for my friend who had his done because I could see it in his face when he drove it, he was expecting so much more after spending the best part of £2500..

 

[Rom]

When I went, tdi were charging about 700 ish, that was for the k100 Inc mapping.

It depends on expectations. I mean standard vtec is around 6k. Mines now around 4200 I think.
That's almost 2k lower down that my power is available.
People change 6th gear to get a 200 rpm change. I'd say having vtec available 1800ish rpm earlier, is pretty transformative.
Plus you know your car is safe, afr wise. They vary greatly it seems. Many have similar mods to me, and are apparently fine. Mine was so lean high up Paul wouldn't do a pre map power run.

I don't think anyone expects to be knocking seconds off lap times, at 0-60. But in a world of a few bhp here and there, a remap is worthwhile imo.

Obviously, cost wise, forced induction is better. But not everyone wants that. Plus with big bhp, comes more costs, box builds etc.

For me, it's a common sense step. Why buy mods, and not have it mapped to use them to the best you can, and to know the car is running safely. £700 isn't that much in the grand scheme of things is it. I mean most would happily spend that on mani and exhaust, just for the noise, and the button dyno telling them it's now faster!

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[Johngreen537]

20bhp. That's 10% more power. It's also 120bhp per litre, from a 15 year old N/A car with 70-100k on the clock.

Perspective (and expectation) is everything here I think. To me, the biggest change in the power isn't about top end. That surge in mid range is night and day over oem. Anyone who is dissatisfied with that I think needs to get things looked at again.

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[Midge-1989]

Aside from getting remapped for a lower vtec point, the bragging rights, dyno graphs, overall figures etc., is running without a map with 'basic breathing modifications' really unsafe or detrimental to the engine (short or long term)?

I know the importance of a healthy Air-Fuel Ratio has been mentioned above by people who seem to know what they are talking about, as well as to get the most out of the bolt ons, but I guess what I am really asking is what could possibly go wrong and the likelihood of it happening running, for example, an exhaust manifold, cat-back and uprated air intake without a map or similar?

TDI North is a long and expensive way to go for something that may not really make much difference as per Fez's OP...unless of course the longevity and general welfare of the engine is at risk.