Dyno Charts!!

Ian,

Your Nearly there mate, firstly the graph you are refering to is our 2.3 Race car not the demo. the demo graph was the first map, it was the cam angles causing the dip in torque, as you can see from the later posts of customers cars which have a smooth transition from primary to secondary and vtec lobes.
The power peaks on both our cars are lower than normal because on the race car we use a 2.3 engine which under square and produces high torque 200+ft.lb. the demo car exhaust is a spec 4 which is more restrictive than a Pro Spec, this shows higher torque but slightly lower top end revs,

we can make an engine produce the power or torque characteristics that we want by using different combinations of bore size/stroke length/induction length/cams profiles/valve size/exhaust.

Paul,

 

[Gaz DC5]

Your VTEC point is too low

How do you mean? It's suppose to be that low as its not a standard map

 

[VT-Doo]

Your VTEC point is too low

How do you mean? It's suppose to be that low as its not a standard map

To tune VTEC properly the car must be put through two power runs back to back.
Set VTEC high (like 7500rpm) and do a run. Once you‘ve got a plot of the run you need to set VTEC low (say 3500rpm) and do another run. Plot that power run against the first one and VTEC should be set where the two lines cross over.

By having VTEC set higher than this cross over will result in VTEC coming in with a kick, a jump in torque. This is the route Honda went down so as to capitalise on VTEC “kicking in”, the sudden power increase helps sell cars.

If VTEC is set to low then a dip like yours is created. The reason for this is because at the given RPM the lower cam lobe is making more torque than the higher cam lobe.

By having VTEC set on the cross over point will create a seamless transition from the lower to the higher cam lobe and will make the most area under the curve (which is what everybody wants).

Personally I like the “kick” and have VTEC set to come in 100-200RPM after the cross over point.

 

[Gaz DC5]

I like the way the mugen ecu feels that's one of the reasons I bought it over the kpro, I can't change anything about the map as it's preset and can't be remapped

 

[VT-Doo]

The Mugen ECU is a waste of money imho.
Like you just said, it's preset, it can't be changed.
The Hondata K-Pro unit can be set to ANYTHING you desire.
The fact that a lot of people gain good results on the butt-dyno means nothing. What people have to remember is that the K-pro is only as good as the person who mapped it!

And as for all this "learning" pish I've read on here, it's called Closed Loop and is how the OEM ECU operates.

Gaz, sorry if that comes across a bit... :evil:

 

[Gaz DC5]

The Mugen ECU is a waste of money imho.
Like you just said, it's preset, it can't be changed.
The Hondata K-Pro unit can be set to ANYTHING you desire.
The fact that a lot of people gain good results on the butt-dyno means nothing. What people have to remember is that the K-pro is only as good as the person who mapped it!

And as for all this "learning" pish I've read on here, it's called Closed Loop and is how the OEM ECU operates.

Gaz, sorry if that comes across a bit... :evil:

This has been covered a million and one times. If you don't like the mugen then that up to you and your entitled to your opinion. The mugen learns the mods you put on the car to a certain degree, it might not be as finely tuned as the kpro but i don't have to pay £300 each time i change something. I drove both a mugen'd k20 and a K-pro'd k20 before i bought my mugen ecu, i preffered the way the mugen pulled lower down and the way the car drove. Figures don't show the full story as i'm sure you know.

Why is it learning "pish"? Can you explain more? Surely you know that most ecu's are self learning to a certain degree. If the mugen wasn't self learning my car would be starved of fuel after all the breathing mods which i added after the ecu

 

[cpoh]

This has been covered a million and one times. If you don't like the mugen then that up to you and your entitled to your opinion. The mugen learns the mods you put on the car to a certain degree, it might not be as finely tuned as the kpro but i don't have to pay £300 each time i change something. I drove both a mugen'd k20 and a K-pro'd k20 before i bought my mugen ecu, i preffered the way the mugen pulled lower down and the way the car drove. Figures don't show the full story as i'm sure you know.

Why is it learning "pish"? Can you explain more? Surely you know that most ecu's are self learning to a certain degree. If the mugen wasn't self learning my car would be starved of fuel after all the breathing mods which i added after the ecu

Gaz your mugen ecu has a generic map the same as the oem ecu which has a tiny bit of play with fueling etc. you can add mods but it will still run the same map, a hondata ecu can be run on the same map with a change in mods but that doesnt mean it will run great!

I know you are happy with the mugen and your performance but the dyno graph looks like a dogs dinner, its a mess.

 

[Gaz DC5]

This has been covered a million and one times. If you don't like the mugen then that up to you and your entitled to your opinion. The mugen learns the mods you put on the car to a certain degree, it might not be as finely tuned as the kpro but i don't have to pay £300 each time i change something. I drove both a mugen'd k20 and a K-pro'd k20 before i bought my mugen ecu, i preffered the way the mugen pulled lower down and the way the car drove. Figures don't show the full story as i'm sure you know.

Why is it learning "pish"? Can you explain more? Surely you know that most ecu's are self learning to a certain degree. If the mugen wasn't self learning my car would be starved of fuel after all the breathing mods which i added after the ecu

Gaz your mugen ecu has a generic map the same as the oem ecu which has a tiny bit of play with fueling etc. you can add mods but it will still run the same map, a hondata ecu can be run on the same map with a change in mods but that doesnt mean it will run great!

I know you are happy with the mugen and your performance but the dyno graph looks like a dogs dinner, its a mess.

yeah your right, the map doesn't look great but as your words quote "im happy with it" and as im sure you know what is put on a piece of paper doesn't show the whole story.

when i have a spare £1000 to spend i'll be sure to spend it on a kpro dont you worry :roll:

 

MMeeeaaaooowwww !!!!

Handbags down lads
everyone has their own way of viewing things,we all have different requirements otherwise we would all be wearing the same clothes and chasing the same girl. i think the common phrase is "each to their own"

On another note , We did our first round of Nippon challenge yesterday, It was so exciting and classes varying from totally std cars up to super GTs. We won our GT300 class and came third overall in GT500 and super GT, I would reccomend it to everyone ,whatever your budget, The Paddock crack was much friendlier than another race series we have experienced.

It was raining all day ,but that didnt dampen moral,and some teams had open to all BBQ's going day and night.
Paul,

 

[Dc5Dub07]

On another note , We did our first round of Nippon challenge yesterday, It was so exciting and classes varying from totally std cars up to super GTs. We won our GT300 class and came third overall in GT500 and super GT, I would reccomend it to everyone ,whatever your budget, The Paddock crack was much friendlier than another race series we have experienced.
It was raining all day ,but that didnt dampen moral,and some teams had open to all BBQ's going day and night.
Paul,

Sounds like a great race, some serious BHP Impreza's and Evo's so the DC5 did well..

Also congrats to the lads from the Tuning Factory who came 2nd in the GT500, not bad for a DC2 with a Standard B18 Engine.. =D>

 

Barry from Tuning Factory did very well and drove out of his skin, he was in Super GT class not GT500 due to his power to weight ratio I think, A very deserved 2nd in SGT.
Paul,

 

[VT-Doo]

This has been covered a million and one times.

Yes, and still people don't quite get it.

If you don't like the mugen then that up to you and your entitled to your opinion. The mugen learns the mods you put on the car to a certain degree,

Not quite, it runs in Closed loop*.

it might not be as finely tuned as the kpro but i don't have to pay £300 each time i change something.

You don't need to re-map the K-Pro after every small change as it can also run in Closed Loop*.

I drove both a mugen'd k20 and a K-pro'd k20 before i bought my mugen ecu, i preffered the way the mugen pulled lower down and the way the car drove. Figures don't show the full story as i'm sure you know.

I can't argue with that. What I can say is if the K-Pro'd car (with similar mods) was noticeable slower and lacked mid-range then it hadn't been tuned properly.
Without seeing either maps or knowing the modifications my inclination would put it down to the cam phasing (the "I" in I-VTEC) or mid-range timing, or even both. Both of these are controlled by the ECU, and both can be altered in K-Pro.

Why is it learning "pish"? Can you explain more? Surely you know that most ecu's are self learning to a certain degree. If the mugen wasn't self learning my car would be starved of fuel after all the breathing mods which i added after the ecu

You're on the right track.



*A standard DC-5 runs in closed loop under normal operations i.e. idle and cruising.
During “normal operation” the O2 Sensor sends a signal to the ECU telling it to add or subtract fuel to keep the air/fuel ratio at 14.7:1. This adding or subtracting of fuel is called “Short Term Fuel Trim”.

If the “Short Term Fuel Trim” is consistently say about +10% (which is most likely to happen after adding bolt-on modifications, which add to more air entering the engine i.e. exhaust and CAI) then the ECU will add fuel to the entire map, this is called “Long Term Fuel Trim”.
In order to keep the “Short Term Fuel Trim” as close to 0% as possible the “Long Term Fuel Trim” is increased.

The ECU doesn't learn the modifications on the car, it simply keeps the idle and cruising air/fuel ratios as close to 14.7:1 as it can. The extra power to be made from adding or changing modifications comes from the timing side of the map, which can only be changed with a mappable ECU.

I‘ve tried to keep this very simple and have left out a lot of fine detail. Hope this helps



Gaz,
I'm not trying to cause an argument, I'm just trying to show you that your car has a lot more potential
What kind of MPG are you getting?

 

[Gaz DC5]

My MPG was fine at 1st when i had the mugen fitted but it has got worse recently, i have the engine management light on from when i had the spoon 2-1 fitted. I've recently had the cat put back on so i need to remove the fault (it should be done in the next day or two). Hopefully this will sort things a bit i just hope the o2 sensor is not damaged. Have you got something in mind with the MPG??

 

[VT-Doo]

never noticed your thread regarding this, I've posted a reply there.

 

[jonster]

I've borrowed the Mugen N1 ECU for a few days at a time over the years of DC5 ownership but mostly run a KPro. Yes the KPro was dynoed and composite map produced where there was the most power for each intake cam angle and the chart showed an improvement over the N1. The mapping for power suggested a VTEC switch-over point of 3300RPM for my breathing (GruppeM, RBC, TODA 4-2-1, Mugen Twin) but there was no way I was going to live with that for daily drive. I soon set it for a window between 4700 and 5250 where it felt most natural. The lesson being don't let the graph dictate how you want the care to drive. Beyond the dyno tune I fine tuned things further with road tuning/logging to get the a/f as spot-on as possible in all throttle positions. It felt great, but I still missed the way the N1 felt. It just feels a very well setup map for quite a varying set of mods and is satisfying to drive. I would quite happily run with the N1 if I was to live my DC5 experience all over again and just concentrate on weight saving and suspension instead. If I went back to a Teg having owned a FD2 for 6 months I would also change the gear ratios to be the same too. They are so well matched for the Civic compared to the Teg.

PS I thought the N1 only ran in open-loop for both cam profiles / all throttle positions.

 

[TyperItr]

Here is my remap and Dyno result. Would really like some feed back on this. Good results i think was done on a Dynapack rather than rolling road never seen one before. Seems that Vtec comes in later after the remap. How dose it look to the people that know what they are looking at?

extra 22 at the wheels and 27 at the flywheel. No internal work and has a standard cat

 

Typeritr,

Who did your mapping mate ??

 

[TyperItr]

A company here in ireland tdp is their name

 

power is bang on for that spec,

But looks like they have just done fuel adjustments only.the graph is exactly the same but moved up by red cell AFR changes.

you need to tell them to alter the cam angles and get rid of that huge torque flatspot before the v-tech comes in. we can map that out by changing the cam angles before and during v-tech change over.so they should be able to do it if they know what they are doing.

the fealing now will be false, like a big kick in the back when v-tec comes in, but it actually is the differential between 140 ft/lb and 180 ft/lb 300 revs later.
the perfect transition is not even fealing the v-tech come in. that means that your primary/secondary cam lobes are doing their full job right up to change over to your high cam lobe.

Its like a RELAY race, where the first runner slows down to a stop before the second runner picks up the batton from them, the second runners acceleration will look very good from that point,,But if the first runner were not to slow down at all, the changing of the batton would not show any big change or movement in speed at that particular point, although the 2nd runner would be 20 yards ahead of the slower changing team.

Got it ????

 

[TyperItr]

Yeah i understand you the drop in power then the kick again feels a lot faster. So apart from that torque dip it looks ok? I will give a call and say that to him see if he will adjust the cam angles. It also feels like Vtec is 2-300 rpm later at kicking in than before it was at 5200. Thanks for the advice Paul much appreciated