Which coilovers?

[spooke]

Yep, they are due in 2 weeks time, then give a week for custom clearance so not far off.

Jerrick

I was so tempted to get the Yellow Speeds in the recent sales, but was holding out for these - I was really impressed with them on my brothers Civic...

Any sneak peaks on their new look, will you be using the EP3 rod ends again? Also will it be necessary to run a extended tie rods and a rack raiser with these still?

 

[tricker_luke]

And a rough ball park cost?

 

[MeisterR]

They look similar bar the collars I mention, which is another reason how things can look similar but perform completely different.

Yes, this batch uses the EP3 track rod end for reason I mention above, but I am open to suggestion if the DC5 community want some DC5 specific coilovers.
I feel the current design is a benefit and not a draw back.

As for extended rod end or rack spacer, it depends on a lot of factor.
Personally, if it was my car, I will leave them unless necessary.
Just like roll centre adjuster, you only install them if needed, otherwise it cause more problem because you end up moving something that doesn't need to be moved.

Jerrick

 

[spooke]

They look similar bar the collars I mention, which is another reason how things can look similar but perform completely different.

Yes, this batch uses the EP3 track rod end for reason I mention above, but I am open to suggestion if the DC5 community want some DC5 specific coilovers.
I feel the current design is a benefit and not a draw back.

As for extended rod end or rack spacer, it depends on a lot of factor.
Personally, if it was my car, I will leave them unless necessary.
Just like roll centre adjuster, you only install them if needed, otherwise it cause more problem because you end up moving something that doesn't need to be moved.

Jerrick

To be honest I'm not sure what the difference in EP3 track rod end is?

I'm also wondering if you have any input regarding the Seeker S.A.S Damper design, which have a lower mounting point for the track rod end - to compensate for the angle of the track rod which of course changes when the car is lowered. Is this something you would look into implementing into a 'higher spec' damper? From what you've said though you don't feel this is necessary?

 

[MeisterR]

We actually done this "straight arm" design way back a few years ago.

The problem with this design is while the "theory" checks out, what happen in real world application is very different.

What we had found is this straight arms design make the EP3 / DC5 steering "jerk" under power when combined with LSD.
The initial test with EP3 was fine, but UK spec do not have LSD as standard.
A certain amount of DC5 did not have any problem either.
As the steering arms are attached to the damper, the camber and toe are linked making it very difficult to locate the issue.

As for why Seeker use this design, it is possible that they do not have to worry about this as majority of their customers are track car.
For most of our customers who use their car as their daily / fast road / occasional track cars, all type of road surfaces have to be considered.

In the end, we discontinued this "straight" arm design because it seems the standard "curved" arms are less prone to this effect.
And if the customer feel the need to install extended track rod end or steering rack spacers, they can also do so.
We also have look into the "reverse taper" that are on the Mugen suspension, but we also have feedback of a similar issue as the straight arm so we decided against it also.

As far as bump steer are concern, we actually measure up an EP3 race car about a year back and found the geometry of the steering arms are fine with the track rod in the standard position.
Of course this depends on ride height and so on, but in that car we didn't have any problem.

That is my experience with this, so I would steer away from the straight steering arm design (pun intended).
We just can't find a good reason to use it as it isn't good on road cars base on customer feedback, and it isn't great on race car based on our measurement as well as experience.

Jerrick

 

[spooke]

Thanks for the very informative reply Jerrick. As Tricker_Luke asked, what price are these expected to be, the same as your current range?

I think I'll hold out for these to come out, personally I'd prefer them to be able to use DC5 track rod ends just so I don't have to change them - although if I required the extended track rods then they would be anyway.

 

[mike.williams]

nitron also discontinued the straight arm and went with the swan neck after customer feedback.



as for the Seeker coilovers, i nearly bought a set as they are newly designed but just too expensive when you consider rebuilds and shiping etc.

but going back to the straight arm/ inverted ( mugen N1) brackets, i think it is to do with ride height as they all run low but it allow for the correct toe adjustment but as Jerrick said Japan are very track focused.

increased Castor really does improve the steering on these though.

 

[spooke]

nitron also discontinued the straight arm and went with the swan neck after customer feedback.

as for the Seeker coilovers, i nearly bought a set as they are newly designed but just too expensive when you consider rebuilds and shiping etc.

but going back to the straight arm/ inverted ( mugen N1) brackets, i think it is to do with ride height as they all run low but it allow for the correct toe adjustment but as Jerrick said Japan are very track focused.

increased Castor really does improve the steering on these though.

Yeah that makes sense, my car is a daily which will rarely see track time, I won't be going very low either as I don't want to have issues with speed bumps, thanks for the input.

A question for everyone - are the extended track rods a necessity or only if you go low. Basically I want to know if I should buy anything else along with coilovers - camber bolts and arms?

 

[mike.williams]

Shortened track rods are usually required when running more than 2deg camber when adjusted on the top mount.

It depends on the coilover design though.

 

[MeisterR]

Thanks for the very informative reply Jerrick. As Tricker_Luke asked, what price are these expected to be, the same as your current range?

I think I'll hold out for these to come out, personally I'd prefer them to be able to use DC5 track rod ends just so I don't have to change them - although if I required the extended track rods then they would be anyway.

Price will be competitive, it will go up about £30 so nothing earth shattering.
We want it to be an affordable entry level performance that is as best as we can make engineer them.

The track rod end is a wear and tear part anyways, so changing them just mean one thing less to worry for the future.
They are the standard size track rod end, and chances are you will be fine for your use.

As for extended ball joint (roll centre adjuster), it will depends on how low you go.
Again, I will only recommend it if there it is necessary.

Best Regards,

Jerrick

 

[MeisterR]

Note to members interested in the new coilovers:

As I said the price will go up a little, but if you are interested in the new coilovers, I will make a little offer.
Lets us know / pre-order now for the old prices (and you can apply the 10% forum discount also), and we will send you the new version when stock come in for the old price.

So basically you can pre-order the new coilovers at £692 delivered before the stock arrives.
Sounds fair enough?

Jerrick

 

[spooke]

Note to members interested in the new coilovers:

As I said the price will go up a little, but if you are interested in the new coilovers, I will make a little offer.
Lets us know / pre-order now for the old prices (and you can apply the 10% forum discount also), and we will send you the new version when stock come in for the old price.

So basically you can pre-order the new coilovers at £692 delivered before the stock arrives.
Sounds fair enough?

Jerrick

That sounds great, would this be a set specifically for the DC5 though or would you have to buy the EP3 Track Rods for the extra £30?

 

[MeisterR]

That sounds great, would this be a set specifically for the DC5 though or would you have to buy the EP3 Track Rods for the extra £30?

Yes, you will need the EP3 track rod end.
So the total work out at £719 delivered (you get a discount on the track rod end too.)

Jerrick

 

[Mebz]

Yes, you will need the EP3 track rod end.
So the total work out at £719 delivered (you get a discount on the track rod end too.)

Jerrick

Very tempted to swap my buddyclup RSD's for these.

Would you need shortened track rods with these if you are going to run more than 2 deg camber?

 

[MeisterR]

Very tempted to swap my buddyclup RSD's for these.

Would you need shortened track rods with these if you are going to run more than 2 deg camber?

That is a limitation of the chassis, so pretty much the same applies for everyone.
With the EP3 / DC5, as everything is connected, it became a little bit of a jigsaw puzzle regarding geometry.
Because camber, toe, and ride height all affect one and other, so it all depends.

We have an elongated bolt hole on the lower bracket so you can "shift" the hub "in" to gain more negative camber.
But it still gives no guarantee because it all depends on all the other setting.

Jerrick

 

[Area Motorsport]

Straight arms create bump steer, common misconception is the steering arms want to be straight when they don't.

If they're straight you end up with more bump steer than lowering 30-40mm without a rack raiser.

We used to think straight arm was the way forward 3-4 years ago until we did a bump steer test on a alignment rig.

If your going to adjust camber on the top mount you'll generally always need shortened arms.

 

[spooke]

Straight arms create bump steer, common misconception is the steering arms want to be straight when they don't.

If they're straight you end up with more bump steer than lowering 30-40mm without a rack raiser.

We used to think straight arm was the way forward 3-4 years ago until we did a bump steer test on a alignment rig.

If your going to adjust camber on the top mount you'll generally always need shortened arms.

Is it the general rule that you want to keep the track rod parallel to the lca? hence why as the Japanese guys run very low, the straight arm helps with their geometry?

But for me as the geometry can change with each factor I guess I won't know on my own car until I fit some coilovers and see how the alignment turns out.

 

[mike.williams]

angled up slightly is better.

 

[MeisterR]

But for me as the geometry can change with each factor I guess I won't know on my own car until I fit some coilovers and see how the alignment turns out.

Personally, I think it will be fine.
The reason is because if there are anything majorly wrong, we would of heard about it in the past 4 years we have been offering the curved arm design.

And we can also adjust camber on the lower mount as well as the top mount, so it also help a bit when it comes to achieving the camber you want.

Jerrick

 

[spooke]

Personally, I think it will be fine.
The reason is because if there are anything majorly wrong, we would of heard about it in the past 4 years we have been offering the curved arm design.

And we can also adjust camber on the lower mount as well as the top mount, so it also help a bit when it comes to achieving the camber you want.

Jerrick

Thanks for all the info Jerrick, I'm aware that it should be fine but I want to get it right the first time as it is my only car - this info isn't that easy to find.

I will definitely consider ordering a set though, I am still reluctant to buy the track rod ends though...